If the Captain went below mins...

[WileE]

Another thing about the interview.

The interviewer isn't necessarily looking for the "right" answer, he is also looking at how well you think and act under pressure.

I had this question come up on the interview. I answered with the correct response of challenge/response/act and then he started expanding the question with stuff like "He won't give you the controls, now what do you do?" "He's fighting you and continuing the approach?" At this point there is no "right" answer IMO, you do what you feel you have to do.

 

[acaTerry]

....and besides the other answers, realistacally the FO would not be "scared $hitless at 300 AGL". Reasons being that flying approaches to minumums is something that most FO's do soon after being on line. And besides that, especially for those who flew on the west coast before getting to the regionals, it's kinda neat....
Also, lets say that you have a Vtgt speed of, say 150 KTS. At the 600 fpm glide path to keep Glideslope, you have @18 seconds. Not really time to have a debate, but not an immediate crash either.
Also, you usually have a feel for the CA by the time you get to the APP phase and know whether to expect something like this from him, so you're spring-loaded.

..."Bonanza 36R climb and maintain field elevation"

 

[LUVStruck]

Limits

A couple of thoughts come to mind while I'm reading this thread.

1/ There are legal limits, safety limits, and personal limits. None should ever be exceeded.

2/ If you operate by the book everytime, you have nothing to fear (FAA, Chief Pilot, etc.).

3/ Oh yeah, I forgot, this is the real world. Well it's food thought and something to strive for anyway.

Fly safe, fly smart, fly tomorrow.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

"2/ If you operate by the book everytime, you have nothing to fear (FAA, Chief Pilot, etc.)."

This sentiment is a natural reaction against the "cowboy mentality."

Unfortunately it is not true. No matter the FARS, SOPS, or Manufacturer Recomended Procedures, human judgement is still a crucial and constant factor in flying.

Its too easy to think of examples where you will be Legal and Unsafe at the same time. Common Sense still has its place in aviation.

In fact I will go a step further and say that worrying about getting in trouble by your boss or the FAA is actually counter productive to saftey. What we need to worry about are the things that can hurt us.

IE... you are taking off in Citation II from a dry sea level airport, length 12,000 feet. Pass through V1. You are committed-- no need to think-- thats the procedure. Cabin fire, hitting a moose who takes off a few feet of a wing tip (maybe we are at Bangor Maine), whatever. Hmmm... we have got probably 10,000 feet of runway straight in front of us but we wont abort cause that will be hard to explain to the FAA, or our boss? Fudge the FAA! Fudge my Boss! Let them tear up my certificates. I am going to take the course of action that I determine gives me the highest odds of survival.

Any SOP nazis care to offer rebuttal?

 

[acaTerry]

I don't think they meant it that harsh....just that you don't want to be an "inventor" in an airplane. We all know (hopefully) that common sense is the king. Whatever you do.....live through it!
Seeeeeeeeeee yaaaaaaa

 

[Riverdance]

Maybe it's the culture at the airline you fly for, but in my experience, if I called minimums and there wasn't anything flashing outside the window, and the Captain didn't call for a G/A like right away, I WOULD assume he died and do the G/A myself.

Or to put it another way, I have never flown with a Captain were this would be any kind of an issue. Because of that, it makes my situation as a first officer very clear. "Minimums" and nothing outside and no response from him, I'm now pilot flying.

On the other hand if I was looking out the window, called minimums and he said: "I'm seeing lights," and I didn't I'd keep looking and letting him fly.

Either way, if we landed in a field and bent something, the CVR makes it his problem. (Assuming we were still alive.) (And I'm also assuming that if I intiated a G/A, we would have diverted and landed safely.)

In the event that things were not normal, such as we dealt with an engine fire and shut something down, or were still on fire, I would have been briefed whether or not crashing where the firetrucks are is preferable to wandering around in the fog and crashing on the side of hill somewhere etc... And if there had not been a brifeing I would have asked prior to 200 feet AGL.

All of this would be my response should I ever get the chance to interview anywhere else, though I might word it a little smoother.

Hope this helps for what it's worth...

 

[publisher]

ask

Why don't you ask the Gulfstream f/o that piled into the ground at Aspen below minimums what he would do different this time.

 

[Toad4]

That sounds cruel...but it's true.

Publisher hit the nail on the head. I envy you 700 hour guys who instructed for 6 months and then got on with a commuter (that sounded smarta** but I don't mean it that way). I went the more traditional route and the SOP was whatever works or whatever the Captain says. I have to say that, the right answer (unless there are extenuating circumstances) is the 1, 2, 3, rule. MISSED (ACTION), MISSED (ACTION) w/name, Take the aircraft. It just is never that easy. I am a pretty strong willed person and it was a real dilemma when a Captain begins a circle off of a VOR A and before you can blink you are 200-300 feet below minimums, IMC, in a 30-45 deg. bank. He knew I was pissed and scared (I told him repeatedly) and he knew what he was doing. We stayed in that configuration for 3 circuits (never went missed) and I was just about to take over when we saw the 5000 ft runway and landed. I was busy trying to make sure we weren't going to hit anything solid and keeping track of where we were in relation to the field and feeding him info that I couldn't do much else. I was, for all practical purposes, a hostage. Both decisions, fighting him or letting him go, is bad. All I could really do was to try and ensure the most positive outcome. I will never do that to a Co-pilot and any Captain that would should be beaten senseless. I was always taught and told the same things that everyone else here was. Reach the missed, go missed, or land. Simple as pie. The problem is when you are a new FO with a bottom feeding company and this is the first time it has ever happened and this IS the SOP. If the real world were as easy as sitting here 70% of accidents wouldn't be CFIT and 95% wouldn't be pilot error.