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If the Captain went below mins...

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flyby

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
132
... would you (as FO) really have time to do anything?

So the CA is flying and is on the instruments (ils), you're making callouts peering through the windscreen looking for the rwy env., 500 to mins, 100 to mins, mins. You call 'no contact' (or whatever you're supposed to) and 'Missed Approach'. But there he/she goes again... right below the DA. Tick tock. You think, maybe he/she is incapacitated. You call again 'Missed Approach-No contact'. Tick tock. Then you do as others suggest, call the tower and announce missed approach... tick tock. As a new FO wouldn't you think you're pretty much along for the ride on this kind of scenario? I am talking in the real world, not the interview world. Do you really want to wrestle with the controls at 25 ft agl? Alltogether you may have only 15 seconds from mins to touchdown.

FO's in many cases have a lower tolerance and experience level than their seasoned Captains. They may be scared sh&*less at 300 feet agl. They may think going a foot below mins spells doom.

Is it a bigger compromise to the safety of the flight to delve into this realm where the outcome is also not so certain? That being the imminent confrontation and potential wrestling match? I can see it now, part of the approach brief includes "Okay Cap, this time we're REALLY going missed at the DA... else I am going to grab the controls... okay?"

Would appreciate any and all opinions. Thanks.
 
I see you haven't generated much response to the question so far, so if you don't already know the "standard" answers, here they are: If you arrive at minumums without having spotted the runway or approach lights then a missed approach should have been executed the moment the PNF (or airplane) stated "minumums"... However, you the PNF did not see anything and the PF continues the approach so you repeat "minumums" immediately. If a missed is not then initiated... your hand goes to the throttles and pushes them forward as you call missed approach on the radio. Ok... is it realistic? Not really because by the time you're pushing the throttles forward, most likely the runway or approach lights will be visible, unless the field was below mins to begin with, in which case a missed approach should have been expected. Then again, I understand that you don't want to get into a fight over who's flying the airplane. Bottom line... it needs to be thouroghly briefed before it happens.
 
You asked real world so here is my 2 cents. The book is already out the window and the CA is basically going to drive it into the ground. Asuming the visability is basically nill you had better be ready to do a quick flair to get it on the ground. Asuming your eyeballs are outside and you are coming down fast the CA will not have time to look up and flair and land if the visability is truly nill. Don't flame me, I know this is in violation of the regs, but you can bet this is how you would do a "poor mans Cat III landing" in an emergency. Of course in the emergency case you would have quickly briefed the above but the "pucker factor" would be the same for both. Cheers.

KlingonLRDRVR
 
Ok another senario.

"Disclaimer" I dont practice this.

But, say you are on a multiday trip and the weather is down most of all the places you are going that day.

On the 1st approach the capt. doesnt go missed. You get on the ground and you ask the capt, hey, I didnt see anything but you kept going, why?

He might say, WELL SON, Ive been in here 100 times before I knew I could get in.

OK, so the capt has told you what his plans are, and his judgement for future approaches, maybe.

Do you give him another chance?

Do you say Im not having anything to do with him?

Do you say, I would like to know if you are going to go below minimums before we get there so maybe I can "help you" and we are both on the same page?

What is the appropriate thing to do?

Just posing some questions.

Hopefully judgement will prevail.
 
flyby.

Is the Captain new or a low time pilot. Your callouts of 1,5, mins and 1 are very helpful to the pilot flying the approach. I may have missed it but what airplane do you fly?
 
The airplane will not go under minimums under your watch!!
The missed approach was briefed. If the capt is heading below minimums you have to assume that he is incapacitated (dead, sick, crazy,...). We all are professionals.
You will successfully save the day and fulfill what everybody expect from a first officer.

Now in real life: The captain will go missed approach or he s gonna have a lot of explaining to do and it is best for everyone.

On CatIII, if the world "landing" is not issued by the capt, the FO takes the control at 50 feet: no questions, no arguments. Same at 200'.
 
For the interview...

If you are in an interview situation, you aren't going to let the Captain go below mins and will take the controls to fly the missed.

In the real world on the other hand, you get your voice on the CVR all the reminders about the mins, call the go around and make sure you are clear about the fact that he is going under the mins. You CYA, but the last thing you want to do as you go under 200' AGL is fight for the controls of the plane. He's the PIC and if he's going to crash the plane the only thing you can do at that point is make sure he is on glideslope and on course so that if he does crash, it will at least be on the airport where there is emergency equipment, not five miles away in the side of a hill.

Odds are he won't crash and you have a decision to make. You can let it go. You can refuse to get back on the plane with him and call your chief pilot, probably followed by a call to the FAA. Or take the guy out back, beat the crap out of him for risking your life and everyone's life on the plane, and then refuse to fly with him.
 
Those are not good odds, especially if my family is onboard. Stick to procedure, make the call outs, listen for the response, take over if he doesn't do or say something that tells you he understands what is going on. You do have enough time at 200' to do something - just don't be polite waiting for a response that should be immediate. If you are worrying about your career by making the Capt. mad then you do not belong there. The days of thinking that the Capt. is god and can do no wrong is long over. We have to all be more professional than this and do better.
 
The problem with this question in a training or interview setting, is that it seems to assume an incapacitated or confused captain.

I have been in the right seat shooting below mins -sucking up the buttons off my seat -more than once. (Not at my present job of course) The captains were not confused, they were deliberately going below mins. This makes the correct response as an FO much harder.

I think there is a very natural hesitation to try to take the controls from the captain at a critical point in the flight when you know that they know what they are doing--- you just don't like it.

If you are faced with this senario in real life it means you have gotten into a position where the old school is still alive and the cowboys are running the show.

Personally, assuming a fully fuctioning (although clearly cowboy) captain, I would not try to take the controls from him at mins- he probably wouldn't go limp and say "oh ok, you have it then" anyway.

However, once on the ground (and indeed you probably will live) you will need to make some hard choices. You may be working for a good company, just one loose captain. It may be easy to refuse to fly with him. Or you my be working for a loose company. Then what? In all honesty you will probably have to either suck it up and learn to love the cowboy in YOU, or quit.
 
This thread is very interesting to me, as I hope someday I'll be in an interview room being asked this! :D

At 200', there's no way I'd want to wrestle with the controls. But what if the FO were to just push the throttles forward? I know that jets are far more slow to respond to throttle input than the bug smashers that I fly, but would firewalling the throttles in this situation screw up the approach enough to force the Captain to go missed?
 

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