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Idiots guide to oil

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stillaboo

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2003
Posts
443
I know that as oil pressure decreases on my aircraft I should expect to see a temp increase, but, I must admit, I can't explain it to anyone for the life of me. Could someone take a shot at it for me?

I keep getting lost on why oil does this, but when you expand a fluid in an expansion turbine (like an ACM), the fluid drops in temp and pressure right? I'm so confused, as usual.
 
Oil is not a single viscosity fluid, like water. As it heats up, the viscosity decreases, hence the apparent loss of pressure. As the oil cools down, pressure increases, because viscosity increases.

Also, oil is not just Oil, it is also a zillion other compounds to increase lubricity, reduce corrosion, make it flow at changing temperatures, etc, etc.
 
Stillaboo,

I think that you're looking at it from the wrong end.

Oil pressure decreases as a result of increasing Temperature.

It doesn't have anything to do with thermal expansion. It has to do with the decreasing viscosity. Like Sky37d said, as the temperature goes up, the viscosity goes down. As the oil gets thinner, it gets harder to maintain oil pressure as the oil flows through the oil galleys and between the bearings easier.

As an anology, it would be easy to squirt a mouthful of water out a drinking straw, but it would be hard to maintain much presssure in your mouth. On the other hand, it would take quite a while to squirt a mouthful of molasses through the same straw, but it would be easier to maintain a higher pressure while doing so.


Another reason oil pressure decreases is that the oil pump becomes less efficient. Mose g/a oil pumps are the meshing gear type. They depend on close tolerences between moving metal parts instead of seals. Now, as the oil gets thinner, it becomes more likely to escape through those gaps, rather than being pumped, especially on an older, more worn pump The pump thus pumps a smaller volume of oil per revolution.

Does that answer the question?
 
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A Squared said:
...as the temperature goes up, the viscosity goes down. As the oil gets thinner, it gets harder to maintain oil pressure as the oil flows through the oil galleys and between the bearings easier.
This is why--on the CRJ, for example--the limitations allow for higher than normal oil pressures after engine start on a bitter cold Winter morning. 125 psi at idle after start in July might be indicative of a problem, but the same value would be acceptable after start in Toronto in January. Once all that thick, gooey oil starts to warm up, you'll see the pressure ease back down to normal.
 
As the oil increases in temperature, it becomes less "thick" and it becomes harder for the pump to pump the same amount of pressure as when the oil is cold. That being said, there should not be an appreciable difference in your oil pressure once your oil temp reaches the green arc. There is a pressure relief valve that regulates oil pressure in the engine, and it works on the basic principle that it allows oil to bypass into the sump once a spring is sufficiently compressed, hence maintaining a specific pressure.. typically (from my experience), these valves tend to run partially open in normal cruise conditions, and therefore, even as the oil becomes less thick, they can provide the right amount of pressure. Possibly a combination of high oil temp and low engine RPM, (as the oil pump speed is proportional to engine speed) would cause noticeable fluctuations, but if in doubt about your oil pressure at all refer to the limits stated in the MX or overhaul manual for the engine. They haver very specific ranges that the pressure must be in. On a side note, I have found that certain relief valve springs have a tendency to get "soft" when they get warm, and thereby cause lower oil pressures on their own, regardless of oil viscosity.
Just my $.02 worth :D ;)
 
And in all seriousness folks, if you notice the windscreen is blacked out with oil, at about the same time the oil pressure is low and the oil temp is high, you can assume the bushings on the connecting rods are long gone and there is probably some galling occuring there. As well as in a few other places.
 
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hehehe.. well put.. in that case.. you have .. 18 SECONDS TO IMPACT :D :eek:
 
fr0g said:
...in that case...you have....18 SECONDS TO IMPACT.
After which your oil pressure will decrease rapidly.
 
And then you'll know why our mom's...bless their hearts...always said to keep a clean pair of shorts in the glove box.
 
if you notice the windscreen is blacked out with oil, at about the same time the oil pressure is low and the oil temp is high

This is what I was actually meaning to ask, 'when I lose oil pressure and get an increase in temp., why is that indicative of an oil loss?', but I think that's already been covered. However, my windscreen will remain perfectly clean during all of this, though I wouldn't notice anyway since my USA Today would obstruct the view as I obliviously piss oil. That's what EICAS is for! :)

originally posted by fr0g
as the oil becomes less thick . . .

Took that 'idiot's guide' comment seriously, huh? :)
 
stillaboo said:
This is what I was actually meaning to ask, 'when I lose oil pressure and get an increase in temp., why is that indicative of an oil loss?
if you get a slow leak or loss, oil temp will rise due to decreased lube cycle time through the engine. If you loose it all quickly, oil temp will show no big change, but the noise level will increase (for a little while).
 
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The weekend before last, I had the kids. My mother drove came down in order to attend the Monster Trucks with us. I loaned her my vehicle to drive home. She had been gone about an hour or so when she called on someone's cell phone. She said the vehicle had overheated, and she would be waiting at a service station.

The vehicle was out in the desert, along the highway. When I arrived there, the first indication of a problem was the oil all over the back, dripping off the mudflaps, tailgate, and spare tire. The second indication was opening the hood to find the oil pressure line melted, the radiator hoses blown, etc. Yes, it overheated.

It overheated when the oil ran out, right before the engine siezed.

I asked her about oil pressure. She said it was fine. She said the engine lost power and she then glanced down at the temperature gage. It was pegged. She pulled over and the engine quit (with a clunk and a bang...when the rod broke...). I asked her where the oil pressure gage was, and she didn't know. Did she happen to look at the big gage stuck in the dash, where I cut a hole and installed it? Uh-uh.

Today I get to go rent a u-haul and tow it back into town (save the three hundred bucks the towing company wants to do it).

Why does the tempeature go up when oil pressure goes down? It doesn't. It can go up when quanity goes down, due to less oil to carry away and dissipate a certain amount of heat. However, pressure can decrease as viscosity drops, as indicated by other posters.

It's worth noting that many oils experience a vicsosity INCREASE with an increase in temperature of oil, especially in the case of multiweight oils. The purpose is simply to allow flowage at reduced temperatures, and still maintain adequate viscosity at operating temperatures. Accordingly, the oil becomes more viscous with an increase in temperature, within a certain viscosity range.

At reduced oil pressures, damage can occur long before a thermal change is noted. Aside from the damage, you need to know where the temperature is being measured in the oil. Some measure the oil tank, others the oil inlet, some the pump outlet, some the cooler outlet...are you measuring the effectiveness of the oil cooler, or the output temperature from the engine? You are going to see very different readings, and a time delay after oil loss of pressure loss. Typical readings are post-cooler, meaning you have more stabilized continuous reading, but a delayed one.

With a normally operating system, a decrease in volume or pressure should cause no change in temperature. Your system vernitherm and other temperature regulating devices in the oil system should account for the difference, and route more or less oil through the cooler, heat exchanger, etc.

It has nothing to do with thermal expansion, as typically volume changes very little. Viscosity changes, but volume doesn't change much at all. The biggest change when you have less oil is that you have less material to move the heat, and you can see a temperature increase. It should be noted that less oil typically doesn't mean less pressure, unless there is so little oil that the pump cannot be fed. How much oil is retained in the tank means nothing to the pressure, unless there is insufficient to leave the tank (or sump) for the oil pump...in which case you're in a world of hurt.

The times I've had significant oil loss have typically been marked by a visual indication. I've seen the wing completely covered in oil, or oil spraying or pouring from the engine nose case or other areas (in the order of gallons). Often oil pressure doesn't change until a very significant amount of oil has gone, or a massive leak has occured and it just can't be maintained. In most cases, we never saw a temperature increase; we simply shut it down. Had we continued to run it long enough, we woud have seen the increase.

In the case of my Samurai, the temperature increase isn't due to oil loss directly, but rather to the fact that someone drove it to destruction without noting the oil loss. The temperature increase was enough to encourage me to poke a hole in the side of the car with the engine prop rod, anyway.

Anybody got a spare Samurai, Switft, Tracker, or Sidekick engine they want to get rid of?
 
has anybody else caught themselves dazing at stillaboo's AVATAR for like . . . . . 20 minutes.

it's hypnotic i tell ya.
 
avbug said:
It's worth noting that many oils experience a vicsosity INCREASE with an increase in temperature of oil, especially in the case of multiweight oils. The purpose is simply to allow flowage at reduced temperatures, and still maintain adequate viscosity at operating temperatures. Accordingly, the oil becomes more viscous with an increase in temperature, within a certain viscosity range.

Avbug,

Sorry about the samurai. I have a freshly rebuilt o-235 sitting on a stand, all you'd need to do is make some custom baffling, make an adaptor plate for the transmission, and a shaft adapter, Some sort of cooling fan for stop and go traffic, change the gauges in your panel, install a mixture control....uhhhh never mind. Hope you get it sorted out soon. Regarding the excerpt I quoted from your post; I'm not sure that I agree with this. I don't believe that any oil, even multigrade oils, get *more* viscous with temperature. I think that they all get less viscous. What the Multigrade oils do is lose *less* viscosity for a given temp increase than a straight grade oil would lose for the same temp increase. For example, Aeroshell 15-50 would have the same viscosity at 0 C as a 15 weight oil would have at 0 C, but once it is heated to 80 C, it has the same viscosity as a 50 weight oil would have at 80 C. That is not to say that the oil actually gets more viscous. 50 weight oil at 80 C is less viscous than 15 weight oil at 0 C.

Note, I just picked the 0 C and 80 C out of the air for purposes of illustration, the actual temps that the industry uses for this comparison are probably different.
 
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jetdriven said:
about 900-400$ from this website


www.car-part.com orCLICK HERE

I would have thought that $900 would by the whole samurai

Not laughing at ya Avbug, just laughing with you. I've got an 84 F250S/C 6.9 diesel that I'll sell for $900. The engine will probably last forever, but I'm just not sure if the rest of the truck would make it to Nevaada.

regards,
enigma
 

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