I'd like to be a pilot, advice needed!!

[wannabepilot]

Hi, I just turned 24, and will get my B.A. in economics with a business minor in december. I have zero money and zero flight hours, yet I recently decided that I would like to become a pilot (I have always been fascinated with aviation and the life of a airline pilot but for numerous reasons never got started with it). I would like to know the best route to go about it and the odds of me being able to achieve it. I've heard about these mega expensive schools like Flight Safety where you have to plop down $50,000 or so and that is just out of the question for me, I would have to probably train up to CFI at my local airport, where there are 2 FBO flight schools (in Boulder, Colorado). If anybody knows the Denver area and could recommend a good flight school I would appreciate it. Seeing all these massive amounts of hours that you need kind of concerns me. How did some of you build up your time when you were starting out? (I doubt I've even DRIVEN 1000 hours in my life) Besides being a flight instructor, what kind of jobs are out there (if any) for people with around 300+ hours?

Reading this message board and hearing about all the out of work pilots kind of worries me. I don't need to become a 747 captain in order to feel like I suceeded, but if I didn't make it to at least a regional airline (or something on that level) I would feel like all the money and training were a waste. Are there a lot of good pilots out there with the hours and training they need that can't ever get a job?

Well, sorry for rambling. I would appreciate any advice. Also, if there are some people like me out there (who made their decision to be a pilot later in life and didn't train in the military, colleges, or big flight schools) I would love to hear your stories. Thanks a lot.

 

[sbav8r]

From one newbie to another, I suggest you keep a back up plan so you don't go hungry when things are slow. I have a friend who after being furloughed went out and started making more money as loan officer than when he was flying. He had a buisness degree and prior experience in the field. If you can manage to find an occupation that will lead to a comfortable career as a back up then take it, even if it slows your flight progress a bit.

You might want to seriously consider enlisting in the Air National Guard and let them pay for your training with the GI Bill.

 

[bobbysamd]

Denver flight schools

You might try Wings of Denver Flying Club Inc., 7625 South Peoria Street, Englewood, CO 80112, telephone number: (303) 790-9090, e-mail: [email protected]; at Centennial. It's been around forever. Also try Aspen Flying Club, which is also at Centennial. It, too, has been around for many years.

If you are not adverse to earning another degree, you might check out the programs at Metro and Aims Community College in Greeley. If you're attending a Colorado state school you should be able to transfer enough credits to cover your electives at either school.

The above suggestion about the Colorado ANG is an excellent suggestion if you want to go military. Military pilots always go to the head of line in airline hiring.

You raise the age-old question about building hours. It can be a daunting and frustrating process. Moreover, 1000 hours aren't really enough to get a career job in these tough hiring times. Just so you know. But airline hiring is cyclical, which means that the times will improve. They always do. Then they go bad again. Et cetera. In any event, other pilots have been trained, found work, and have climbed the ladder. You are at a good age and there is no reason why you can't. In the meantime, you have to take it step-by-step.

The regionals are not necessarily the hallmark of success. There are plenty of corporate pilots who fly better equipment than the regionals, make more money, fly to more interesting places, and have more time off.

As an Econ and business major you might enjoy reading Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger. It discusses such things as airline deregulation. It might give you some insight into the business.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your plans

 

[Timebuilder]

The path to an airliner is long and sometimes arduous. You are expected to first fly for a "regional" airline first, starting at 14 to 18 thousand per year. You are on call at all hours, away from your family on every conceivable holiday, and often move to several cities to get promoted.

At this point, very few pilots are progressing from the regionals to a "major" airline. In fact, several thousand major airline pilots are on furlough. Retiring pilots are not being replaced with new hires. Many pilots would change careers if they could, but they have no other skillset to use to support their families. Many are selling plywood at warehouse stores. They are all in line ahed of you.

Other operators, such as cargo, charter, corporate and fractional carriers are hiring occaisionally, but only a small percentage of those pilots enjoy the pay that they had originally envisioned when they began their aviation journey.

If you don't mind spending ten years working long hours for low pay, and you really LOVE flying, then maybe this is for you. After that, you may be able to find a position that pays more than 40 thousand a year.

With this in mind, try out an introductory flight with an instructor at a nearby FBO. Do you LOVE it? Good.

Go to an AME (get a referral) and ask for a first class medical exam. Tell the doctor about ALL family history medical problems. Are you healthy now, and is there a genetic time bomb waiting for you at age 40? No? Good.

So, let's review. You can handle the low pay, the medical standards, the years of "dues", the competition from thousands of experienced pilots, and a nomadic lifestyle?

(To Paraphrase) "...then maybe you can be one of us, the poor, the waiting, the Pilots".

 

[tarp]

Wannabe -

One step at a time. Econ and business - well first you need money. The old joke is "what makes airplanes fly?" The answer is "lift and a lot of money."

You need some kind of money to live and pay for $100-120/hr flight lessons. The usual suspects are: 1.) get a job, 2.) ask mom and dad for help, 3.) get a loan (risk factor) or 4.) rob a bank (ethical dilemna).

If you are stuck with option #1, then you can go one of two ways: a.) good job, lots of money, squeeze in flight lessons i.e. use your degree, get a good paying, hard working job and soon you will have the kind of money needed to visit a flight school. b.) part-time work, part-time airport bum i.e. you could work on getting one or two small jobs and then with every nickel you scrape, go get another flying lesson. You could bag groceries at Albertsons (they're in Denver aren't they), pump gas at the airport and get an employee discount on flight lessons (i.e. two low paying jobs and getting low cost instruction).

Leaving school and going out into the "real" world can be pretty scary stuff.

Mark on this Board (midlifeflyer) looks like he might be a pretty good CFI in your area. I think he also surfs another board called studentpilot.com. You could look at the AOPA website aopa.org and see their "learn to fly" section. Lay out a plan step-by-step.

 

[flybrowntails]

Getting started in aviation these days is a difficult choice to make. A point worth making is that Aviation has always been difficult. (Difficult or not-I only wanted to be a pilot.)

A career in aviation or areospace doesn't have to be an airline captain. There are many jobs, pilot jobs, you may consider such as charter pilot, flight instructor, ground instructor, cargo pilot, fire fighter, corporate pilot--the list goes on and on. There are also many paths to follow to become a commerical pilot.

Every pilot has a different story on their training and success. It may be worth speaking personally with some pilots you know and ask questions about their career.

Best of luck.

 

[wannabepilot]

hmmmm...

Thanks for the posts, they are all interesting...
sbav8r, yeah, I'll definetly have to be working full time during any flight training. If I was 18 right now something like the air national guard would be appealing to me I think, but after spening the last 5 years locked-down in college I really couldn't see spending another 4, 6 or 8 (what ever it is) locked-down in the military. While I have a lot of respect for the military and the people in it, I would also have a problem going off to Iran (or some other "evil" country) and dying in a war I don't agree with... But enough of me getting political (no offense intended to anybody).

bobbysamd, thanks for the Denver info, I'll look into those places. Since I'll be living in Boulder at least until I graduate (I go to CU) it would be handy to at least get my PPL here. I looked at Dakota Ridge Aviation, have you heard anything about them? Being a little burned out on school right now I would rather not try for another degree right now, but if I'm able to get good, inexpensive training there I would definitely think about it. Maybe with a lot of credits transfering it wouldn't take that long... Not to pry into your business, but I see all your hours instructing. Were you able to support yourself and your training with just your instucting or did you have another job?

Timebuilder, yeah, I'm prepared for the low pay and crazy hours. I don't have any kids or any other major financial burdens at this point. Yeah, I'd better go see if I can pass that class 1 medical exam. I think I'm healthy but who knows. I've never been someone who liked to go to the doctor, it's probably been 10 years since my last check-up .

Thanks to the rest of you people too. I'd be interested to hear about you guy's training and early jobs flying. sbav8r, I guess you recently started flying, how long did it take you to get your commercial? Well, later.

 

[Clownpilot]

Re: hmmmm...

DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

JUST BUY THE BIGGEST WATCH YOU CAN FIND.

AFTER THAT, ITS ALLL DOWN HILL FROM THERE.

EASY PICKINS.

Thanks for the posts, they are all interesting...
sbav8r, yeah, I'll definetly have to be working full time during any flight training. If I was 18 right now something like the air national guard would be appealing to me I think, but after spening the last 5 years locked-down in college I really couldn't see spending another 4, 6 or 8 (what ever it is) locked-down in the military. While I have a lot of respect for the military and the people in it, I would also have a problem going off to Iran (or some other "evil" country) and dying in a war I don't agree with... But enough of me getting political (no offense intended to anybody).

bobbysamd, thanks for the Denver info, I'll look into those places. Since I'll be living in Boulder at least until I graduate (I go to CU) it would be handy to at least get my PPL here. I looked at Dakota Ridge Aviation, have you heard anything about them? Being a little burned out on school right now I would rather not try for another degree right now, but if I'm able to get good, inexpensive training there I would definitely think about it. Maybe with a lot of credits transfering it wouldn't take that long... Not to pry into your business, but I see all your hours instructing. Were you able to support yourself and your training with just your instucting or did you have another job?

Timebuilder, yeah, I'm prepared for the low pay and crazy hours. I don't have any kids or any other major financial burdens at this point. Yeah, I'd better go see if I can pass that class 1 medical exam. I think I'm healthy but who knows. I've never been someone who liked to go to the doctor, it's probably been 10 years since my last check-up .

Thanks to the rest of you people too. I'd be interested to hear about you guy's training and early jobs flying. sbav8r, I guess you recently started flying, how long did it take you to get your commercial? Well, later.

 

[bobbysamd]

Training

bobbysamd, thanks for the Denver info, I'll look into those places. Since I'll be living in Boulder at least until I graduate (I go to CU) it would be handy to at least get my PPL here. I looked at Dakota Ridge Aviation, have you heard anything about them?

I've heard of the place but don't know it personally. One other suggestion might be Denver Air Center at Jeffco.

Being a little burned out on school right now I would rather not try for another degree right now, but if I'm able to get good, inexpensive training there I would definitely think about it. Maybe with a lot of credits transfering it wouldn't take that long

Metro is a four-year program. Maybe you can transfer two years' worth as electives. Aims is a two-year program. You probably can transfer one year. You would have to take all the Aeronautical Science courses at either school.

Not to pry into your business, but I see all your hours instructing. Were you able to support yourself and your training with just your instucting or did you have another job?

I learned to fly intially for fun. I was working a regular, full-time job and trained on a pay-as-you-go basis. I would NOT recommend training the way I did if you aspire to an aviation career. After I decided to change careers, I kept on with my regular job until I landed a full-time instructing job at ERAU. I took a $6K pay cut, but after a year I was making more money as a Riddle instructor than I ever did as a broadcaster. (Yeah, Timebuilder, most anything other than the majors pays lousy.).

Hope that helps. Once more, good luck with your plans. Hope that C.U. can find a QB this season.

 

[bigD]

Hope that C.U. can find a QB this season.

I don't. Stinkin' CU...

 

[wannabepilot]

oh yeah bigD?? you from a rival school or something?

bobbysamd, I'm not expecting too much, but it would be awesome if we were able to just keep one QB as the starter for the whole year... been doing a lot of research, those florida flight schools are way out of my range. I was thinking about getting the PPL locally but then maybe finishing up at a bigger school. Have you heard of the Airman Flight school in Norman? Just from reading their webpage it sounds pretty good: 20k and 5 months for the "pilot upgrade course" ( Instrument rating- Commercial pilot certification- Single- and Multi-engine ratings- Certified Flight Instructor, single engine rating- Certified Flight Instructor, instrument rating)

Anybody out there attended this place? They also say that the tuition is locked-in (you can take a little longer to pass a test and you still pay the same amount) and all-inclusive.

 

[bobbysamd]

Airman Flight School

oh yeah bigD?? you from a rival school or something?

I believe that my friend bigD is a Texas supporter.

Have you heard of the Airman Flight school in Norman? Just from reading their webpage it sounds pretty good: 20k and 5 months for the "pilot upgrade course" ( Instrument rating- Commercial pilot certification- Single- and Multi-engine ratings- Certified Flight Instructor, single engine rating- Certified Flight Instructor, instrument rating)

I have heard of Airman Flight School, which is at Max Westheimer Field, only a hop, skip and a jump from Soonerland. It has been around for many years. It is an accelerated school. It does the job.

I know one of the examiners who works regularly at Airman. I went to him for three practicals. He is a former FSDO manager who had a reputation for being a bear. He was tough, but he treated me very fairly and professionally. No complaints, and no worries if you are prepared. I sent my first instrument signoff to him and my student was accorded similar fair treatment.

The Oklahoma City area is a great training environment. You experience all four seasons. There is wind all the time, so you can really hone your crosswind landing skills and ground reference maneuvers. OKC is a terrific instrument environment. There are plenty of days of low, but safe IMC in which to fly ice-free and shoot approaches. Speaking of which, there are multiple versions of every type of approach in OKC. There are several different approaches at Wiley Post. I recall a VOR-C at Page that was interesting. Non-congested Class C and cooperative controllers. The Mike Monroney Center is in Oklahoma City, so if you have certificate or medical issuance hassles you can resolve them locally. If you want to fly in more congested airspace, the DFW Class B is a couple of hours or so away by 172.

Hope that helps. Go C.U.

 

[wannabepilot]

great, thanks for the info bobbysamd. That place sounds like it might be ok. I was just reading about the Mesa Pilot training place. They don't quote any prices on their web page but I would imagine it isn't cheap. They also say that graduates of the program with !!300!! hours get hired as FOs for mesa! Thats really impressive if it's true. Do you believe that?

Are there any accelerated schools like the the Airman flight school in Colorado? (I don't think I'm really finding a complete listing of the colorado flight schools)

Well, thanks again for your help bobbysamd...

 

[wannabepilot]

hmm, looking through the archives here it sounds like Mesa school isn't thought of very highly around here to say the least. I'm really new to all this, I don't quite understand the whole PFT thing. If you wanna PM me about Mesa feel free.

 

[Timebuilder]

You sound like a sharp guy. You probably are a sharp guy.

I'm sure you will perform due dilligence before you make a move.

That's good.

 

[bigD]

oh yeah bigD?? you from a rival school or something?

Not a rival school per se, but I was in Dallas for the Big 12 title game two seasons ago....d@mned Buffs!

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

wannabe,


My Roommate did his CFI at Airman about 5 years ago. He was there no more than three weeks I believe. Hard work but I don't believe he felt the checkrides were your typical "sweat it out" type of checkride.

I would suggest as you said previously, just work on the private rating on your own time at the local FBO. If the $$$ isn't there and you want to continue part-time after the private, that's cool too. Don't feel any pressure to go to the big schools in Florida or elsewhere. You could get loans for far less $$$ and do the full-time program at your local FBO. The best instruction you could find may be at a Mom & Pop type flight school in your area.



Mr. I.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

hmm, looking through the archives here it sounds like Mesa school isn't thought of very highly around here to say the least.

I wouldn't say that. I think opinion is mixed about MAPD. Opinions are mixed about most every name-brand flight school, with the exception, perhaps, of FSI. Offhand, I cannot recall seeing any negative comments about FSI for the price.

I instructed at both FSI and Mesa . Here's a link to the most recent Mesa thread. I did not mention Mesa initially because I thought it might be too expensive for you. But, it is down the road in Farmington, San Juan College is a North Central Association-accredited school, so you should be able to transfer credits, and there are loans.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[wannabepilot]

Bigd, yeah, that was a great game (not as great as the Nebraska game a couple weeks earlier, greatest sporting event I've ever attended in my life) that texas team was really good, too bad Chris Simms was such a choker...

Thanks for the Airman info Mr. I, yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go for the PPL at a local FBO.

Here's my plan of the day bobbysamd: Get PPL locally, then go to airman and do the pilot upgrade course, then do the PACE program at Mesa. Going this route vs. the ab-initio program at Mesa would probably save me in the neighborhood of 30k, would give me my CFI ratings, and theorhetically, take less time. What do you think??

 

[wannabepilot]

Anyone out there with experience in the PACE program? If so, tell me what you think. Are you given the same opportunities that the ab-initio people get?
Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa PACE

Get PPL locally, then go to airman and do the pilot upgrade course, then do the PACE program at Mesa. Going this route vs. the ab-initio program at Mesa would probably save me in the neighborhood of 30k, would give me my CFI ratings, and theorhetically, take less time. What do you think??

The thing that concerns me greatly about the Mesa PACE program and similar, airline-sponsered upgrade programs is you could spend a lot of money and leave empty-handed. Meaning you could receive a bunch of training, but no tangible credential, i.e. an FAA rating, and not receive the expected benefit, e.g. a regional airline interview and regional airline job.

An airline interview is usually promised, if not guaranteed, at the end of the course in these programs. That does not mean, in any way, that you will be hired. People sign up for these programs with the objective of getting hired sooner than the traditional aviation ladder-climb. Once they have your money you are at their mercy. These programs might be designed to get you to the regionals sooner, but, they're also designed to make money for the sponsering regional. No altruism. Meaning, for whatever reason, the place could wash you out, and you'd be out a lot of money with nothing tangible to show for it.

I don't feel that you know for sure whose interests are being served, yours, as the customer-student, or the airline's, as business enterprise. In fact, I feel there is a clear conflict of interest in this regard.

You can save even more money if you get your Private locally, and then go to Airman for your advanced ratings, if you want. At that point you will have all the credentials you need to find work. As always, that's only my $0.02 opinion.

We have a poster with the screen name of Stillaboo. He's an MAPD grad and knows the PACE program. I'd suggest you drop him a PM and get his opinion.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[wannabepilot]

yeah, what you say is all true, there is definitely a big risk involved. I would have to do a HUGE amount of research before I ever decided to enter a program like that.

Well, PPL locally and Airman (or something like that) for the other ratings sounds kind of appealing to me. For some reason I feel like a very structured, accelerated program would be best for me. It would keep me motivated and I wouldn't forget a lot of stuff. I know it's more expensive (25k vs. 15-20k or so doing it at a FBO) but I would be finished in five months with all those ratings instead of a couple of years. Like they say, time is money. Do you know of any other places like Airman? (i.e. a no-frills, no-promises place that gives you your ratings fast for a "reasonable" price)

Yeah, I talked with Stillaboo a little, he had some good info. I guess it worked out really well for him...

 

[Buda6868]

Wannabe, I signed up with AllAtp for my ratings, probably paid to much, but it is a fast track program.

I do not think this is PFT, but I will have my ratings and can go from there.

 

[jergar999]

Be carfeful about doing your ratings at Centennial. You'll find yourself more often than not going upstairs to the Perfect Landing restaurant, and spending so much money you won't have enough left to fly. It's not BBQ, but man it's good food.

 

[bobbysamd]

APA Food

Be carfeful about doing your ratings at Centennial. You'll find yourself more often than not going upstairs to the Perfect Landing restaurant, and spending so much money you won't have enough left to fly. It's not BBQ, but man it's good food.

It is good, but driving the few blocks to Bennett's is worth the time.

Don't forget about Gunther Toody's, at I-25 and Arapahoe Road.

 

[wannabepilot]

haha, ok, I'll remember that. I doubt I'll do my training at Centennial, but I'm sure I'll fly in there a few times. I haven't heard of those other two places, but I've seen those ads on TV for Gunther Toody's, there was something about some waitress. It's not often a restaurant advertises one particular waitress, she must be good...

 

[crashpad]

Wannabe, I'm glad you brought up MAPD. I didn't go through their program, but I did fly for Mesa +5 years and got to see their operations up close. Yes, it's true...they hire you with 300 hrs. if you are a good fit for the company...and most are. I will also say that most of the MAPD grads I flew with were good pilots for having 300 hours. Understandably, they all lacked decision making skills based on experience....300 hrs. is a fraction of the time and experience you'll build if you devote your career to flying.
That said, their program is the only one of its' kind in the country that can legitimately deliver what they're selling. They'll train you in Bonanzas and Barons (won't find nicer planes than that)
and the rest of the info you can get from them. Ask If they might be able to put you to work in their operation while attending training, I remember them doing that and it's a good way to get experience, earn a little money, and for them to get to know you.

One more thing, if you read the message board for regionals, don't be fooled by the "trashing" Mesa takes from some contributors. They may have valid arguements, but mostly it's petty animosity towards a company that plays hardball with the competition, and sometimes its' own employees. In my opinion, it was a great place to work, I made a lot of friends and have only good memories.

 

[wannabepilot]

thanks crashpad, thats good to hear. I'm pretty sure the ab-initio program isn't for me, but the PACE program still sounds very interesting (I sent off for some info, specifiying that I wanted PACE info, and I got a huge packet today, but alas, no PACE info, just stuff about the ab-initio, I'll try again) From what you say, and another person I've talked to who is a pilot there and a MAPD graduate, it's a good program. I'll definitely look into it when the time comes. Later

 

[Draginass]

Get your private license and fly for fun. Use the ten of thousands of dollars you'll save to get a real college degree, do something you'll like, and make a lot more money at it than you'll ever make in aviation. And you can have a family life as well.

Aviation is great fun but a lousy job.