ICAO filing and FMS defferels question

bgaviator

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This became a big bungle at my place today when we had an aircraft that had its FMS deffered. According to the MEL manual the aircraft could only fly VOR-to-VOR navigation. Now with this new ICAO filing it wasn't very clear as to what letters we needed to add/take away from our strip to reflect this to ATC. I even called Atlanta TMU and they seemed to not really even know.
Now most of our aircraft have these letter identifiers in the strip /M-SRWZ/S. I know that the "Z" stands for RNAV. The strip also has a line that looks like NAV/RNVD1E2A1. Am I to assume that the "Z" needs to be taken out of the suffixes line? And in addition, does the RNVD1E2A1 need to be changed, possibly to the NAV/RNVE99. Nothing about this seems very clear, and even ATC doesn't seem to be much help. If anyone has any better knowledge, I'd sure appreciate the insight. Thanks.
 

ShutupandFly

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The Z indicates to look to the nav line of the FPL. Remove the Z and delete the NAV/RNVE99. You are correct in that ATC is not up to date on the Domestic ICAO FPL. My Suggestion, if you lose the FMS, file the old domestic strip. The domestic ICAO strips are only needed if you are filing a RNAV departure or arrival.
 

dispatchguy

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Concur with the above, and ensure your enroute navaids are working so as to not leave the operational service volume of the navaids forming the route.

You can do an Adhoc briefing (assuming SABRE), and with the VOR IDENTS as the locations to see their notams...
 

bgaviator

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Deferred
The Z indicates to look to the nav line of the FPL. Remove the Z and delete the NAV/RNVE99. You are correct in that ATC is not up to date on the Domestic ICAO FPL. My Suggestion, if you lose the FMS, file the old domestic strip. The domestic ICAO strips are only needed if you are filing a RNAV departure or arrival.
Interesting....I don't think our company really knows when you're supposed to file the ICAO way or not....because they have our SABRE system set up to file everything ICAO format, regardless if it's using an RNAV Sid or Star or not. So essentially, if the FMS is deferred , and we have to go VOR-to-VOR, you take out the Z, and delete the reference to the RNAV capability like the "NAV/RNVE99" or "NAV/RNVD1E2A1?"
 

WalterSobchak

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So essentially, if the FMS is deferred , and we have to go VOR-to-VOR, you take out the Z, and delete the reference to the RNAV capability like the "NAV/RNVE99" or "NAV/RNVD1E2A1?"
Yes.

In addition, if the GPS is deferred as well the G must also be removed.

The Z and NAV/RNVD1E2A1 indicate that the aircraft is FMS equipped and has RNAV capability. Take those out and it, essentially, becomes the /A of old.

One thing I've learned, and actually been told by a center controller, that ATC in the majority (if not all) of the centers still use the old "Slant ___" suffixes. If you defer one prior to departure and try to call Flight Data with "hey, I need to amend a strip...change suffix to 'SDW'"...they're going to laugh at you, then yell at you, then ask for the old code (which would be "/W"). If its pretty close to departure time, best course of action is to remove the strip (that late in the game, I would trust a call to flight data to do so more than anything) and refile.

Perhaps some of us on this forum should send a bill to whatever carrier you're working for now since, between this and 30-hour TAFs, we've essentially been playing the part of your training department (don't get me wrong, I'm happy to help).
 
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Bart Simpson

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Perhaps some of us on this forum should send a bill to whatever carrier you're working for now since, between this and 30-hour TAFs, we've essentially been playing the part of your training department (don't get me wrong, I'm happy to help).
Amen to that.
 

bgaviator

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Yes.

In addition, if the GPS is deferred as well the G must also be removed.

The Z and NAV/RNVD1E2A1 indicate that the aircraft is FMS equipped and has RNAV capability. Take those out and it, essentially, becomes the /A of old.

One thing I've learned, and actually been told by a center controller, that ATC in the majority (if not all) of the centers still use the old "Slant ___" suffixes. If you defer one prior to departure and try to call Flight Data with "hey, I need to amend a strip...change suffix to 'SDW'"...they're going to laugh at you, then yell at you, then ask for the old code (which would be "/W"). If its pretty close to departure time, best course of action is to remove the strip (that late in the game, I would trust a call to flight data to do so more than anything) and refile.

Perhaps some of us on this forum should send a bill to whatever carrier you're working for now since, between this and 30-hour TAFs, we've essentially been playing the part of your training department (don't get me wrong, I'm happy to help).
Hey, I can't disagree with that.
 
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