Icao Atpl

[islandhopper]

Most foreign carriers require an ICAO ATPL license.

OK, I have an FAA ATP license. What do I need to do to convert this over or add on a ATPL valid overseas?

Does anybody know? I cant figure it out. Some places tell me an FAA ATP is already an ICAO ATPL, others say I need to spend 5-6K to get it, whats the deal? Anybody know for sure?

 

[Smitty]

From everything I have seen and known others had to do, you will have to take the test in that country that you are wanting to work in.
I have heard that England is the hardest test, but cannot confirm that.
I also know that you can have the ICAO ATPL and still have to take the particular countries test again.
Such as if you have an Italian ICAO ATPL and then you want to go to Singapore, or China, etc. you will have to do the tests there again.
Try to go do the test in the very same country that you know you want to work in.
There are many others that can tell you much more than I, and also on pprune you can find out a lot as well.

 

[MD80PILOT]

If you have a FAA license that should also be an ICAO license.

ICAO="International Civil Aviation Organisation" of which the US is a member state. I think what you are thinking of is the JAA/JAR license, which is the new Joint Aviation Authority/Regulations in Europe. The criteria to qualify for a license there are more the same as they are in Canada, Australia, etc.

A FAA is a national cert. and so are CAA cert. from any other country, but they stil qualify as a ICAO License.

 

[Stby One]

Your FAA license allready is an ICAO ATPL. The US is an ICAO member state. If I'm not mistaking there are around 185 member states (could be wrong, its been too many years since i took my air law exam).
To convert to a license in another country you will have to contact the national CAA to find out what you need to do to convert your license. It could be that you just have to take and air law and human performance test, or you might have to go thru 800 hours of ground school to get it.
I have a JAA license but I couldn't tell you what the JAA requires for you to convert your licenses. Some JAA states wont let you do it, but others will. So get in touch with the specific country's CAA and ask them directly.

 

[Stby One]

MD80PILOT is "spot on" as the irish would say...

 

[bafanguy]

Island,


Try www.pprune.com as there are numerous threads on this subject.

 

[Smitty]

MD80PILOT: I just got rid of that avatar today, had the very same one for so long.
Anyway, you can say your FAA is an ICAO but I have not yet heard which company will take your FAA ICAO, without you having to take some sort of tests.
As Italy was also only ICAO until recently, they had to take the tests in the US to get their FAA ATP, don't know if they still do, and they are now JAA.
However, if they want a job with particular companies say in England, they only need to pay a small fee and a few little things to change over to the UK JAA, and I know for a fact Singapore and China will also make you take their ATP tests even if you have the ICAO or JAA or FAA, whatever you want to call it, as I know other pilots there that are going through the process now.
Each country and each company is doing its own way to a point.
Good luck and pprune will tell you more.

 

[xdashdriver]

MD80PILOT: I just got rid of that avatar today, had the very same one for so long.
Anyway, you can say your FAA is an ICAO but I have not yet heard which company will take your FAA ICAO, without you having to take some sort of tests.
As Italy was also only ICAO until recently, they had to take the tests in the US to get their FAA ATP, don't know if they still do, and they are now JAA.
However, if they want a job with particular companies say in England, they only need to pay a small fee and a few little things to change over to the UK JAA, and I know for a fact Singapore and China will also make you take their ATP tests even if you have the ICAO or JAA or FAA, whatever you want to call it, as I know other pilots there that are going through the process now.
Each country and each company is doing its own way to a point.
Good luck and pprune will tell you more.

An ICAO license is a license that is issued by an ICAO contracting state. That's all it is. Unless otherwise stated on the certificate, all FAA issued certificates are in complaince with ICAO standards and are therefore "ICAO licenses" The exception would be the Recreational Pilot certificate, probably the Sport Pilot certificate and certain ATP certificates where the holder has not met ICAO flight time requirements.

Some countries allow airlines and other aviation companies to employ pilots that do not have that country's national license, but do have a license issued by an ICAO contracting state ("ICAO license") and use those pilots in active service for the company. Some countries allow this for a limited time period (say one year) before the pilot is required to take some kind of written or practical test to get the national license.

As for JAA licenses...the whole point of the JAA was so that pilots from Italy (or whatever JAA country) can fly aircraft registered in ANY JAA member state. Now...some airlines or companies MAY want you to transfer the administration of your license from one national authority to the one that they use, but it is not required to do so. It is not a "conversion" or anything....just a paperwork issue (and knowing Europe, some kind of hefty fee) to transfer who administers your license.

Most aviation authorities will allow for some level of straight conversion from another country's license to that counry's private license (ICAO contracting states). Most often, all that is needed is a written test in that country's aviation law, or something similar. Conversion to professional licenses is usually a lot more involved and requires taking the full gammet of tests (and sometimes even training). The reason for this is mainly job protectionism.

Ray

 

[typhoonpilot]

This subject has also been done about half a dozen times on this board on various forums in the last year. You might try a search for it.

The above answers are basically correct. I've used my FAA certificate to fly in three other countries now. The first, Taiwan, had no written exam. They just required some line training and then a CAA guy rode the jumpseat to observe and bingo I had a Taiwanese certificate. Mind you, Taiwan is not an ICAO State. The second was Saudi Arabia. Again, no written, just a little flying around and then a PCA inspector rode the jumpseat and wallah I had a Saudi certificate. Saudi Arabia mirrors the FAA though, so that is an easy one. The third, The UAE, required an Air Law exam, training, and a checkride. The Air Law exam is pretty easy, especially when your company gives you a bank of questions in advance.

There is really no point in getting a JAA certificate unless you have the right to live and work in the EU. That is unless you want to work for Dragonair, they look down their noses at the FAA certifcate. Having either a JAA or Aussie certificate would go a long way to making you more competitive. Japan requires about a seven month conversion school. Hong Kong requires at least one, if not two exams. You can do an Australian conversion with a couple of writtens and a practical.

Again, there really is no point in worrying about the requirements unless there is a specific job that you are after and the company in question has specific requirements just to get an interview. Usually all conversion requirements are handled by the company after they hire you.


Typhoonpilot

 

[islandhopper]

cool thx

 

[80/20]

ICAO ATPL is a vague and not very specific description. It is typically used by companies that sell information to job seeking pilots. The FAA ATP is an ICAO ATP or ATPL (same thing). Some airlines, for example Emirates, will accept an FAA ATP. Airlines that does not accept FAA ATPs will normally give specific information on what ATPL they accept (For example JAA). Some airlines and operators will arrange for the issue of a national license based on any ICAO license. This is however not common in JAA countries.

 

[Stby One]

www.icao.org

 

[Skaz]

While most of the above info might be technically correct, there are still problems with practical application.

The FAA license might be an ICAO one by definition, but not always accepted as such. It is generally referred to as a FAA one and not ICAO.
This cuts both ways too...for example, I am South African and have flown my entire career as pilot thus far in southern africa. I hold CPL licenses in three countries, South Africa, Botswana and Namibia. I also now have an FAA ATP.

The three Cpl licenses would be referred to as ICAO licenses, the American ATP as an FAA license. The FAA will not issue you an FAA license of the same level as an ICAO one. I got a FAA PPL for my ICAO CPL's. Also, in those three countries, you cannot convert your FAA license to the equivalent ICAO ones. You can get a validation only, valid for as long as your FAA license is valid. This is quite limiting, as you cant add any ratings to a validation like this.

Thus if you see a job advert for an airline like Cathay, and they ask for an ICAO ATP, you need to have an ATP license issued by the administrator of a country like South Africa (i.e. not FAA one) I dont know re the JAA one. I think the British license would be accepted as an ICAO one. And yes its bl**dy hard, so is the South African one, for different reasons though.
One difference is the written exams, in the USA you write ONE exam. In South Africa and Britain you write 7 exams, one for each subject. You have to pass all 7 subjects in 5 'sittings' (where you can write a minimum of 4 initially up to all 7), if you dont succeed in passing all 7 in your allotted sitting, you start from scratch. Up to recently this was all negative marking as well.

Pretty d*mn frustrating.

 

[hawkerjet]

There is a lot of gray area regarding this. technically a us is equivalent to an icao license, however they are not the same. there is a quick and easy way to get an icao without taking all the tests. if you have 1000hrs pic jet, you will meet most airlines requirements and the transfer i describe below will work best. if you go to namibia and rent a plane you can get a namibian pilot license by just showing your faa license. this conversion will be the equivalent of your faa license. ie. if you have a faa ATP license they will give you a namibian ATP. next ,go next door to south africa and convert your namibian atp to an ICAO or british atp. voila, this worked several years ago so some up to date research needs to be done. good luck.

 

[xdashdriver]

There is a lot of gray area regarding this. technically a us is equivalent to an icao license, however they are not the same.

No, technically a FAA issued ATP certificate is not EQUIVALENT to an ICAO one, it IS an ICAO compliant certificate. There are two classes of pilot's license in this world, an ICAO compliant one and a non-ICAO compliant one. That's it. ICAO compliance is the only worldwide standard that exists.

You can argue all you want as to the relative merits and demerits and ease of getting the various pilot licenses and who accepts them and who does not etc etc, but the fact of the matter remains that with a couple of exceptions, all FAA issued pilot certificates ARE ICAO compliant. That is the only worldwide standard that exists.

Some countries may make conversion to their license easier for some than others due to similarities in their training / checking procedures or some form of a reciprocity agreement but that has absoutely nothing to do with ICAO at all.

A lot of aviation authorities (FAA and JAA included) make a distinction between ICAO compliant licenses and non-ICAO compliant licenses. The reason you will find crew leasing companies etc. advertising for an ICAO License, is that it is usually significantly easier to convert one ICAO license to another one than it is to convert non-ICAO to ICAO.

For example, the only licenses which the FAA accepts for any kind of conversion are ICAO licenses. If your license is issued by a state that is not an ICAO contracting state, then the FAA does not recognize that you have a license at all, for "conversion" purposes, effectively. There are similar setups in other countries. I have a ver strong suspicion that the JAA (now EASA) is the same way. They only distinguish between ICAO and non-ICAO.

I can almost guarantee you that ads that contain "ICAO ATPL required" include FAA issued ATPs and indeed all other ATPs issued by ICAO contracting states that do not have an endorsement to the contrary.

 

[xdashdriver]

next ,go next door to south africa and convert your namibian atp to an ICAO or british atp. voila, this worked several years ago so some up to date research needs to be done. good luck.

Again, with the old rules (i.e. UK CAA rules) and the new JAA rules there was no and is no distinction between a Namibian, South African or American ATP with respect to the UK. There is no point in converting to Namibian then British, because the process would be the same to go straight to British (now JAA) from an FAA certificate. I am assuming, in saying this that Namibia is an ICAO contracting state.

 

[hobo-pilot]

my eyes hurt!

 

[Skaz]

raysalmon if I understand you correctly, you are saying that you can go to the UK and present a FAA ATP certificate, for the British to issue you a UK ATP?

Is this correct?

hawkerjet thats agood idea, except that, in my experience, the SACAA (south afria) will only give you a validation for your namibian license. This is also the case with the FAA ATP, I know this, since there was aguy in my company in namibia that had a FAA ATP and could only get a validation with NamDCA, not a namibian license.

looks like some pencilpusher caught on to the loophole

 

[xdashdriver]

Skaz,

No!!! The JAA has made it very hard to "convert" to JAA licenses. You can get a validation for one year from JAA member states, but in order to get an actual JAA license you would be required to undergo approved theoretical and flight training along with all the ground exams and skill tests in order to get the JAA ATPL. This would apply to all non-JAA licenses issued by an ICAO contracting state. The amount of training you need is determined by the Head of Training at the approved school you go to.

Ray

 

[Stby One]

I work in Europe and my company has pilots with all kinds of different licenses. Many of our captains (and probably some F/O's) just have a JAA validation. This means that they still have their national license (non JAA) and every 6 months when they do their OPC/LPC its validated for another 6 months. I don't know exactly for how long you can keep on validating your national license before you have to get an actual JAA license.
I know the rules to convert another license to JAA vary between different member states. If, for example, you have a FAA ATPL you may only need to take an Air Law and Human performance test in Ireland, while as in sweden you might have to go thru the 700+ hours of ground school and take all 14 written exams. In the end its the same license.
As for the flying part, you wouldn't have to take many flight lessons. A friend of mine converted his FAA CPL to a JAA CPL in the UK a few years ago. He took a couple of flight lessons to get used to flying in europe. I don't think he flew more than 10 hours before his skill test.