IAP from a Hold

[Checks]

I know of two different guys who flunked Part 135 checkrides with the FAA because they didnt do a PT and instead flew a straight in approach without getting vectors to final from approach. Unless you get vectors to final or there is a NoPT on your approach plate then you must do the PT.

AvBug is right on as usual.

 

[H2OK9]

Ok fellow flyers, here's the deal.
If you haven't shot the app. and are cleared for the app. you stay at last assigned alt or the alt depicted on the plate when able, if you're coming in from the north you need to do a course reversal thus the PT which can be preformed any way you like so long as your alt is correct and you turn on the side of the barb. If you're coming in from the south there is no need for a turn since a PT is only to reverse course to get you lined up. If you shoot the app and go missed, you would enter the hold most likely from a teardrop or some would choose to do a parallel, either way that puts you inbound on the 003 with left hand turns, if center clears you for the app, you do NOT need to do a course reversal since your inbound leg on the hold is already lined up. Also the Vor is depicted as IAF.
Happy flying!

 

[AWACoff]

Okay,
I didn't make my post very clear. I agree you need to do a course reversal. What I suggested is that you perform a "racetrack pattern" after you cross over the IAF. That isn't the same as the holding pattern depicted for the missed approach. The racetrack pattern performed to the protected side would seem to suffice for a course reversal as well as have you established inbound prior to crossing the VOR...no??? If I am incorrect, could somebody explain it to me like they would to a 6 year old?

 

[A Squared]

AWACoff,

I believe that you are correct, that if cleared for the approach, you could cross the VOR and fly a racetrack and join the inbound 346 radial. I think that this would be pushing the boundaries of a course reversal. I certainly wouldn’t try in on a checkride. If you had an examiner who had a more narrow world view, it might net you a pink slip. You might eventually prove that it was legal, but it would be a real hassle. Certainly if you’re being watched, it’s better to turn to intercept and track outbound on the 166 radial and do a standard procedure turn.



H2OK9 ,


>>>>>If you're coming in from the south there is no need for a turn.......

It appears that you are saying that if you are inbound from the south, whether enroute or in a hold that you may skip the procedure turn. If that is what you are saying you are absolutely wrong. If the designers of the approach don’t want you to fly a procedure turn there will be a NoPT procedure on the plate. If there’s no designated NoPT procedure, you must fly the procedure turn. (unless of course you are being vectored to final) If you don’t agree, I would encourage you to take a look at this legal interpretation from the FAA’s Office of Chief Counsel http://www.terps.com/iafltr/graphics/index.html
which specifically addresses this situation. It states "However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(J) is not present." The "conditions of Section 91.175 (j) " are: vectors to final, Timed approaches from a hold, and a No Procedure turn procedure. It doesn’t get any more black and white than this.

Regards

 

[Buschpilot]

Thanks!

Ladies and Gents,

Thank you for your input(s)!!! I truly appreciate it.

I'm studying the 135 check airmen stuff, and there are some interesting things that come up. I may throw some more your direction....

Thanks again!

B

 

[puddlejumper]

"Straight-In Approach?"

H2OK9 said:

if you're coming in from the north you need to do a course reversal thus the PT which can be preformed any way you like so long as your alt is correct and you turn on the side of the barb. If you're coming in from the south there is no need for a turn since a PT is only to reverse course to get you lined up.

Forgive me for I don't have my AIM on the road with me today, but I seem to remember something about a "straight-in" approach clearance. Along with a NoPT, radar vectors, cleared "straight-in" would get you out of having to do a PT if your position and altitude allowed for it.

I routinely ask (and maybe I'm being a dork) for a straight-in whenever my route of flight, the IAF and the final are all pretty well lined up. Does that sound familiar to y'all?

-PJ

 

[A Squared]

I should clarify that the procedure turn is an absolute requirement for a non-radar environment. If you are receiving radar vectors it's a different story.

 

[H2OK9]

sorry A Squared, You, my friend, are wrong.
You do not need to do a procedure turn if you are coming in from the south! the turn is only in the need of a course reversal such as coming to Hillsboro Airport from the north. IF you disagree, you need to get up to Oregon el' pronto cause them boys up there have been doing it that way for years! check your far 91.175 there is nothing that says you have to do a procedure turn. Once again a procedure turn is only designed in the need of a course reversal! If you are coming in from the south into Hillsboro airport, you do not need a course reversal. you fly to the vor and begin your decent

 

[H2OK9]

Buschpilot you sure stirred up the hornets nest here!
Ok A Squared, I used a life line and did the phone a friend. called tracon in portland, they know this app, inside and out. and I called hillsboro twr as well, same answer from both experts.

NO prodedure turn is required if you are flying in from the south, they will give you, "cross vor at or above 3000'" you proceed on course of 346 and may begin to decend after the vor and continue with no procedure turn. YOU can however, hit the vor, racetrack back around to the left (where the hold is depicted) and fly outbound on the R-166 to do a procedure turn if you want the practice and if there is no transition that says "Straigh In" or the controller doesn't specify. This is direct from the horses mouth folks.
fly safe!

 

[flydog]

I agree with H2OK9 on this one

I still dont understand where the AIM requires that one execute a procedure turn for course reversal when its not required when flying in from the South

If I am to understand Avbug's interpretation once crossing the IAF after being cleared out of the hold and for the approach I need to make a course reversal ??? of my own choosing since no PT is illustrated when flying northbound, intercept the radial outbound, do another procedure turn to intercept the course inbound and complete the approach.

The published hold is the ONLY protected airspace at the IAF. No other procedure is authorized for course reversal other than the hold regardless of wether it is used for a missed approach or not. Any other type of turn is not shown therefore not authorized.

I asked several pilots including check airmen and experienced Captains and nobody would elect to fly back outbound just to execute a procedure turn.