I Want to Throw Up...

[acaTerry]

While we are all going 'round and 'round in here about everything from which regional pilot group $ucks or whatever, let me vent about something that REALLY ticks me off. THE COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS!!

Here we are flying multi-million dollar equipment with all the lives at stake, gone through countless hoops to get here and get what, $20,000 year one, $23,000 year two?

My brother in law, a 29 year old computer programmer got a job offer at (un-named) airlines for.....$79,000 TO START!!!!!!

WTFIT? They are not in shortage. Their screw-ups will not kill people. They did not work their way up at SUB-poverty level wages for YEARS to get to their job. So why do they command such astronomical wages?

THEN, to really, REALLY tick me off, he says "well 79 thousand is OK, but it's not what I'm worth". Then, he has the ball$ to say "Well, I earn my money because sometimes I have to go out on the ramp (he called it tarmac---ignorant a$$) to do something. And sometimes, I have to work on a Saturday. Pilots just sit there and fly. It's not like you have to do anything or know anything. All you do is push a couple buttons".

IGNORANT, SPOILED LITTLE *&%$##&^@(!!!!!!

Geez, and here we are getting mad at other pilot groups. Just plain unjust.

 

[Vortilon]

His ignorance about pilots aside, he apparently knows what he's worth and doesn't have people willing to undercut him because they "love to program". We are our own worst enemy sometimes.

 

[bigD]

Hey, don't get pissed at us! I'm a programmer, although I don't work for an airline.

We get paid what we do because few of us have a passion for it - at least in the sense that most of us on this board have a passion for flying. I write code because the job isn't too bad, and it pays the bills. If a company offered me $40K or something to work for them - I'd walk away. I don't love this job enough to put up with the kind of low pay and political BS that goes on at the regionals. Neither do most other programmers.

It's not a matter of what we deserve. Do I deserve the salary that I make? Probably not, but the simple fact is that if a company needing a programmer posted a job for $30K per year, nobody would apply. That company would have to raise that rate - they have no other choice. Now if some airline offered $30K to Captain a 737, people would scream and yell about the travesty of it, but we all know that there'd be a pile of resume's on that desk for the job.

 

[flaps30]

pilots

get real, anyone can become an airline pilot. Our profession is not that special, the dorks have found their way in and they will sell their soul to prop up their ego. So put your aviator sunglass's on and collect that 19K year pay check.

 

[bigD]

Well, I'd also argue that anyone can become a computer programmer. And with far less training.

 

[750driver]

Probably not, but the simple fact is that if a company needing a programmer posted a job for $30K per year, nobody would apply. That company would have to raise that rate - they have no other choice. Now if some airline offered $30K to Captain a 737, people would scream and yell about the travesty of it, but we all know that there'd be a pile of resume's on that desk for the job.

Terry, BigD hit this target dead-center. This is the EXACT reason why pilots don't get paid what they're worth, as opposed to most other professionals.

 

[acaTerry]

750,
True enough, but WHY? Why can't pilots take a stand instead of cutting each others throats? Everyone bellyaches, but the ones crying the loudest are the ones who cave in at every LOA, TA, etc.

 

[B1900DFO]

Good question. I assume you work for ACA? Why did you guys give in to wage concessions when you are already woefully underpaid? Also I don't think that programmer was way out of line in thinking that he was worth more than 79K. That is not as much money as it used to be especially if you work in a major city. We are our own worst enemy. I have come to the conclusion that pilots will work for anything....Sad

 

[46Driver]

Terry,
I'll take a guess. Does your brother consider this a career job? Also, how is he affected by a seniority system? BigD, how is it getting a job in the computer programming world?

The airlines (the industry taken as a whole) can hold out the carrot of flying for FedEx, UPS, Delta, etc and until you get there, everything is a stepping stone - some will always be willing to "pay the price" to get there. That is their goal which might be counter to one who simply wants to stay at a regional.

The other is due to the seniority system. You can not move up until a spot opens - and you can not get hired at a major until you get left seat time. If everything goes bad, you have to return to the bottom and start over. Or to put in Marine terms for the individual pilot, this leads to a defensive mindset and a war of attrition vs most other occupations where you use initiative to set yourself apart and move up. We are trapped by the seniority system.

 

[bigD]

BigD, how is it getting a job in the computer programming world?

It's pretty tough out there right now, but not impossible. Since programming spans all sorts of different markets, the job prospects depend highly on what kind of programming you do. I'm a consumer and educational games programmer myself, and my area has been hit particularly hard. I'm fortunate enough to have some pretty high profile clients on my resume, so it's not as bad for me as it is for some others. But still, I'm not immune to it - I've been laid off once, and make about 25% less than I did during the tech boom of the late 90's.

But I'm not complaining, it pays for the flying, and for college. Most of my coworkers want to make this a career, but not me - I'm just counting the days until I graduate so I can flight instruct for $12K a year.

 

[SquirrelDog]

Flaps30 your exactly right, any dork and his E6B can get a job flying if they have a big enough wallet, believe me, I have flown with some.

Squirreldog

Living the Dream

 

[pilotyip]

79K stating programer?

I think that number is a little out of wacko for a new hire programmer, at age 29 this programmer might actually be able to do something special and that is why his employer will pay that much, employers out there might pay that much for a G-III current captain because of special skills, but anyone can fly an airplane, if you have desire and a certain level of skill, you can fly an airplane. Flying is fun and I love doing it, but when you hire pilots to make money with them they are a commodity, and you pay as little as you have to. It is then up to the pilot to decide if he will work at that level, some will and some won't, if enough do not want to work that employer, that employer will change their salary and working conditions. Simple economics

 

[bigD]

79K stating programer?

I think that number is a little out of wacko for a new hire programmer,

Yeah, that's a little on the high side - even for areas like Silicon Valley. Typical starting salaries in my field tend to be in the mid 50's or so - depending on what skill set you have. It moves up pretty quickly, though. There tends to be a cap at around $120K - most people making more than that moved into management and aren't writing code anymore.

 

[46Driver]

BigD,
Good Luck with the programming - I tried it in college and had the misfortune of taking FORTRAN before PASCAL (I am dating myself!). The professor threw up his hands when I starting using GOTO statements in PASCAL - kinda knew I didn't have a future in that line of work.

 

[bigD]

Heh - thanks 46Driver! I learned C and Pascal initially, so I had a good start. Once I got to college, I additionally learned a lot of the internet languages - Java, perl, etc...and even some LISP for an AI programming class.

Pretty much everything I do these days is in C++. Even Playstation 2 stuff is C++ under CodeWarrior.

 

[acaTerry]

I just have an old work ethic I guess...but I think the way it should be is that you get paid according to the responsibility, risk factor, and path it took to get a job. I've known him since he was 20, and he's always been a lazy, spoiled type. You know, nothing is ever enough. It's his 5th job in 7 years because everyone he's worked for "is screwing" him out of "real" pay.

I think I'll just start my own airline. We'll operate CRJ's and DHC-8's. First year pay will be $39,000 and second year FO will be 45,000. But that will not matter because everyone will upgrade in 6 months where the CA pay year 1 is $325,001.86. Bad news is that you will only get 25 days off a month. Anyone wanna work for me?

 

[JimNtexas]

If you have the knack for it, programming is pretty good job. Inside, air conditioned, usually not much heavy lifting.

Looks count for almost nothing in the programming world.

There are no unions or licenses required to program. If you want to start a software company, there are no certification requirements and it requires little money. The barriers to entry in software are almost non-existant compared to aviation.

The world is divided into 2 groups, those can program at the professional level, and those that can't. The first group is tiny compared to the second.

While some people program as hobby, nobody in the world likes programming enough to spend $100/hour to learn just enough to program without compensation.

Programmers live in a pretty libertarian economic world. The free market alone sets programmer wages.

 

[phantom122]

Well, pilots just need to stop working for the pissant wages that they do. Just stand up and say "no more will I bust my stones for 17 grand a year while management wipes their butts with 20 dollar bills because they have plenty to spare." But we all know that won't happen because there will always be people willing to work for free, just for the perceived glory of being an airline pilot. Too bad these folks are a part of the problem and not part of the solution.

If you really want to get pissed, just think about the TSA situation. Walk into any big airport in the nation and you'll find lots of federal agents who have a GED, possibly with a criminal background, hired in a massive, knee-jerk hiring spree. These agents fall asleep on the job, steal from passengers' luggage, harass flight crews at checkpoints, and more recently have the power to make life a mess for any pilot they feel is somehow a "threat to security". The best part is that the aforementioned agent is no doubt making significantly more money than any regional airline first, second or in some cases maybe even third year first officer. Disclaimer: I'm sure there are some very great, professional TSA employees out there, and my hat's off to them. But I digress...

 

[jetdriven]

the latest unemployment figures are over 9%. Wake up, its the economy!!

 

[Brett Hull]

I just don't get it

You guys who keep saying things like this:
Well, pilots just need to stop working for the pissant wages that they do. Just stand up and say "no more will I bust my stones for 17 grand a year
are the same ones with CRJ, ERJ, ATR, BAe 4101, 3201, SF-340... in your profiles. Why don't you put your money, or lack of it, where your mouth is and hand in a letter to your CP saying you aren't going to work for ramen anymore. Hello, McFly! You guys are part of the problem!

I'm not trying to bust everyones ba!!s, just stating the obvious. If you don't like the pay, you have no one to blame but the person you see in the mirror. After all, you're the ones who said "I'm only worth 17K".

Oh, and wake up? You guys were taking these jobs when the economy was experiencing record growth. That's got nothing to do with it. You guys telling mgmt "I'll work basically for free" does.