I say "no," he says "yes." Who's right?

[Flying Illini]

This is a new situation for me and the thought never occurred to me. I recently returned from SimuFlite Dallas with my DA-10 type rating. I don't have an ATP license. I recently flew with a captain who says that I can log PIC when it's my leg and I'm flying (part 91). I contend that I can't. Neither of us had access to the FAR's on this trip so we couldn't resolve the issue. Now that I'm home I've had a chance to read 61.51 (e) and it seems to support my answer of "no-way jose."
Thoughts?

 

[igneousy2]

why not?


A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person -- is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

61.51 (e)(1)

What's the issue?

 

[English]

You only need the ATP when acting as PIC in a turbojet under part 135. If you are part 91, you are good to go.

 

[Flying Illini]

That part makes sense, maybe I'm not thinking straight today (very possible!) but 61.51 (e) (iii) is what is causing my confusion.

 

[A Squared]

91.51 (e) i, ii, and iii are seperated by "or" not "and" read it that way and see what it means to you then.


You are legal to log PIC time when you are flying, but be aware that many airlines do not recognize this as PIC time. Personally I can't imagine logging PIC time when I am not actually the PIC, but that's just me.

 

[pilotyip]

TJ 135 PIC OK with Comm Ticket

You can also log PIC and sign as Capt under 135 with Comm and proper type rating. They have been doing it in the on-demand business for years. I do not have the regs in front of me but I do not think you need an ATP in 135 until you are scheduled or hhave 10 or more pax, any comments. This does not include "Eligible on-demand" which requires an ATP under 135.

 

[transpac]

You can also log PIC and sign as Capt under 135 with Comm and proper type rating. They have been doing it in the on-demand business for years. I do not have the regs in front of me but I do not think you need an ATP in 135 until you are scheduled or hhave 10 or more pax, any comments. This does not include "Eligible on-demand" which requires an ATP under 135.

FAR 135.243: 135 Cargo in a jet requires at least a Commercial. 135 pax in a jet requires an ATP whether or not it's scheduled and whether or not it's 10 or more pax.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Sound to me like he's just asking about part 91. I think your getting a little confused between LOGGING PIC and ACTING AS PIC. Two different def's. The short answer is you CAN LOG PIC without ACTING as PIC.

 

[pilotyip]

I stand corrected

We don't deal in 135 pax, so I was not sure, Transpac is correct all pax TJ must have an ATP. However non-TJ do not need a ATP if they carry less than 10 pax. clear as mud right?

 

[profile]

Just remember that if you do choose to log it as PIC (which is legal) you may be setting yourself up for some trouble at an airline interview down the road. Aside from FAA, everyone else defines PIC as "command time" and they don't want to see anything else in your book in that column!

 

[freightdoggie]

My question is,

why didnt you just take the written and get your ATP during your type ride???
Then you wouldnt have to be asking this question....

 

[U-I pilot]

looks like no ATP since not enough hours....

What....ya been slackin' there?....too much FBO lounger time?

 

[350DRIVER]

My question is,

why didnt you just take the written and get your ATP during your type ride???
Then you wouldnt have to be asking this question....

I would only assume because he only has 910 hours Total Time and he is far from the ATP requirements to do what you are suggesting. I found it kind of "odd" that they would type him at such a low total time, never came across anything like that in my 135 days. Usually all initial type applicants will have ATP minimums then the type ride would also act as the ATP ride IF they didn't already have the ATP.

3 5 0

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Logging PIC vs command time

Just remember that if you do choose to log it as PIC (which is legal) you may be setting yourself up for some trouble at an airline interview down the road. Aside from FAA, everyone else defines PIC as "command time" and they don't want to see anything else in your book in that column!

You can legally log it as per the FARs, but the above is a valid point. I had a friend get shot down in an interview because he didn't sign the log book as Captain, but legally logged PIC as per the FARs.

If you can legally sign for the A/C as PIC for the Part 91 flying, reposition, deadhead, etc., then I would tend to log the PIC time. Most interviews don't care what was in the back of the plane or the type of flying. Soon you will have the ATP and it won't be an issue. When you have 5000 hours for the interview, nobody is going to give two sh!ts about a couple hundred hours of part 91 PIC.

A little story:

An airline Captain/mentor questioned me about 6 hours I logged as PIC while acting as a safety pilot in a C172. I thought about it and asked if he logged the time while at crew rest in a first class seat on the B767? If there was a column to keep track of the Gadiva chocolates he took from the credenza while watching the movie?

Do what you think is best, but always have an FAR to back it up.

About the safety pilot time, I had one of the top FAA-guys in charge of FARs on the JS out of DCA and ran the scenario past him and he said I had logged it legally, but again, I guess I had better take out those six hours for the big airline interview!

 

[BD King]

Part 91? Rated and qualified? Log it.

 

[Bandit60]

You can legally log it as per the FARs, but the above is a valid point. I had a friend get shot down in an interview because he didn't sign the log book as Captain, but legally logged PIC as per the FARs.

If you can legally sign for the A/C as PIC for the Part 91 flying, reposition, deadhead, etc., then I would tend to log the PIC time. Most interviews don't care what was in the back of the plane or the type of flying. Soon you will have the ATP and it won't be an issue. When you have 5000 hours for the interview, nobody is going to give two sh!ts about a couple hundred hours of part 91 PIC.

A little story:

An airline Captain/mentor questioned me about 6 hours I logged as PIC while acting as a safety pilot in a C172. I thought about it and asked if he logged the time while at crew rest in a first class seat on the B767? If there was a column to keep track of the Gadiva chocolates he took from the credenza while watching the movie?

Do what you think is best, but always have an FAR to back it up.

About the safety pilot time, I had one of the top FAA-guys in charge of FARs on the JS out of DCA and ran the scenario past him and he said I had logged it legally, but again, I guess I had better take out those six hours for the big airline interview!

I don't have a column in my log book for captain. I have one for PIC.
How do you prove that you "signed out an aircraft" I fly every week as a capt. for my company and I have never "signed out an airplane"