I find that type of attitude a sad premonition for the future of your merger with XJT

[mckpickle]

This is an explanation of prefbid flightline and how it's not globalized and why globalization is bad. Where is the communication about all the vast research on smartpref, their analysis, good and bad features, opinions, etc? In fact, this communication further proves that your MEC is unreasonable. They are so obsessed with globalization that they put out an entire book of why its bad. They see the word globalization and don't even give smartpref an honest hard look. They won't look at anything other than prefbid and instead put their fingers in their ears whenever someone mentions any other bidding system. It's all about work rules, right? Not the PBS software itself. That's what you guys say isn't it? Well there are work rules that can be put in place to counteract globalization of that's what you want to do. But I'm sure there will be an excuse on why that won't work either.

Look, most people over on this side are against any pbs. I dont think it would maintain our qol unless we get good work rules. My point: let's get the facts and opinions out and make an informed decision. Let the chips fall where they may, sort of speak. My point: your MEC is trying to stifle that and keep you in the dark. They are trying to control and dictate debate. You should be clamoring for information, not being patriarchal and circling the wagons. You should ask yourselves why!

It also fails to mention the processes in place that they use to cover the schedule with prefbid. The other half of the email was a retort to information we had put out the use of sort bias. So they felt the need to put a communication out that told.....less than 1/2 the story. The bottom line is that since the system is unable to "think" and look ahead to make sure it's producing a viable solution that tactics such as the use of sort bias, setting of the credit window and unstack are used instead. This has the effect of socializing the lines, ie, making everyone fly the same amount which may be in the 85+ hour credit range.... Someone please explain how that honors seniority. One way or another the schedule will get covered. We find this approach to be the least desirable.

 

[sweptback]

Every pilot does not have to fly the same amount. However, every pilot must fall within a 30-hour window (aside from vacation months). The company chooses the TLV which the window is based upon, just like the company chooses how many block hours they build your lines to.

The current issue is that we have some categories that are overstaffed (CR7 ATL) while we have some that are understaffed (CRJ IAD). Better PBS workrules could fix this, but it would be better fixed by improvements to other areas of the contract. That is, assuming the JNC thinks that it is even an issue.

 

[enuffalready]

. My point: your MEC is trying to stifle that and keep you in the dark. They are trying to control and dictate debate. You should be clamoring for information, not being patriarchal and circling the wagons. You should ask yourselves why!

anyone that owns a business, been in military or just has common sense understands we need to keep this as simple as possible..

fact-- company will not do line bidding
fact--company will exploit any loophole in pbs system
fact-- asa pilots already know all the loopholes in our current PBS agreement
fact-- vast majority of ASA peeps like our PBS
fact-- it just makes sense to tweak what we have vs an entirely new system that is completely untested, nobody uses, nobody seems to want, and allows the company to discover an entirely new way to bend us over for the next 6 years


oh, and in reference to your comments. I am not elected union MEC guy and certainly not in the dark

 

[wms]

Every pilot does not have to fly the same amount. However, every pilot must fall within a 30-hour window (aside from vacation months). The company chooses the TLV which the window is based upon, just like the company chooses how many block hours they build your lines to.

The current issue is that we have some categories that are overstaffed (CR7 ATL) while we have some that are understaffed (CRJ IAD). Better PBS workrules could fix this, but it would be better fixed by improvements to other areas of the contract. That is, assuming the JNC thinks that it is even an issue.

Guarantee is 75 hours, we should be able to bid 75 hours, not 88 and 90.

 

[sweptback]

Guarantee is 75 hours, we should be able to bid 75 hours, not 88 and 90.

I agree with you. I'm just saying that in the world of line bidding, we had limited say over what block/credit time the company built the lines up to.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Our system is every bit as globalized as what we fear of smartPref. How is it honoring seniority to award a line to a junior pilot purely because of preassigned credit and it forces a more senior pilot on reserve. Please, flight line cheerleaders, tell me how that honors seniority.

I encourage all of you to go watch a PBS solution run at the office. It is not pure seniority ruling. We left that when we swithe from line bidding. There are human inputs that can alter the solution, decisions made by the PWG, not your seniority.

 

[dojetdriver]

I agree with you. I'm just saying that in the world of line bidding, we had limited say over what block/credit time the company built the lines up to.

And the standard point applies. Under ERJ lind bid workrules, simply trade that high credit line you don't like down to something you'd rather fly via the LIW's.

Our system is every bit as globalized as what we fear of smartPref. How is it honoring seniority to award a line to a junior pilot purely because of preassigned credit and it forces a more senior pilot on reserve. Please, flight line cheerleaders, tell me how that honors seniority.

I encourage all of you to go watch a PBS solution run at the office. It is not pure seniority ruling. We left that when we swithe from line bidding. There are human inputs that can alter the solution, decisions made by the PWG, not your seniority.

Does Speedtape/www., as well as the others that preach it honors seniority know that?

 

[Nevets]

anyone that owns a business, been in military or just has common sense understands we need to keep this as simple as possible..

fact-- company will not do line bidding
fact--company will exploit any loophole in pbs system
fact-- asa pilots already know all the loopholes in our current PBS agreement
fact-- vast majority of ASA peeps like our PBS
fact-- it just makes sense to tweak what we have vs an entirely new system that is completely untested, nobody uses, nobody seems to want, and allows the company to discover an entirely new way to bend us over for the next 6 years


oh, and in reference to your comments. I am not elected union MEC guy and certainly not in the dark

Fact: your MEC has not put out anything in regards to this topic.
Fact is that I don't know if anything you say is true. Fact is that a communication from the MEC stating everything you just said holds more credibility. Which is my only point of this whole thread!

Why hasn't your MEC put anything out? Do you actually know? Why wont they state the facts and their opinions rather than forcing everyone to take the time to call them and have a conversation that they can deny? Why wont they stand for something in writing for everyone to read and be able to hold them accountable to it? Maybe you ought to find out so that you are not surprised?

 

[Nevets]

I agree with you. I'm just saying that in the world of line bidding, we had limited say over what block/credit time the company built the lines up to.

This is what is meant by socializing. You honor seniority so strictly that it's the only constant. You force the system to adjust other variables for the ENTIRE group. And EVERYONE gets stuck not being able to bid for 60 or 75 hours. But hey, there's no globalization.

 

[79%N1]

I agree with you. I'm just saying that in the world of line bidding, we had limited say over what block/credit time the company built the lines up to.

I agree with both of you. Again, this IS NOT a PBS issue, like Nevets, Pickle and some ASA want to believe. The company can (and will) build the lines to higher credit if needed - and since it is a staffing/cost issue, you can be sure they will. It would be great for those that want less credit to be able to fly less, and those that want more could. Those are work rules that could be negotiated, but line bidding DOES NOT solve that issue. I would suggest those that want less block, drop some trips into open time and see if someone picks them up..

 

[79%N1]

Fact: your MEC has not put out anything in regards to this topic.
Fact is that I don't know if anything you say is true. Fact is that a communication from the MEC stating everything you just said holds more credibility. Which is my only point of this whole thread!

Why hasn't your MEC put anything out? Do you actually know? Why wont they state the facts and their opinions rather than forcing everyone to take the time to call them and have a conversation that they can deny? Why wont they stand for something in writing for everyone to read and be able to hold them accountable to it? Maybe you ought to find out so that you are not surprised?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO QUIT WITH THIS?????

You are such a broken record!!!! The same thing over and over and over and over..........WE GET IT!!!!!!! Enough........................................

Here is your answer, once and for all..............

THE ASA MEC HAS NOT PUBLICLY PUT OUT ANY INFORMATION ON SMARTPREF OR ANY RESEARCH REGARDING THE AFFORMENTIONED!

They do not plan to. We don't want them to. We are not asking them to. Its not going to happen, hasn't happened!!! ENOUGH!

 

[sweptback]

And the standard point applies. Under ERJ lind bid workrules, simply trade that high credit line you don't like down to something you'd rather fly via the LIW's.

Apples and oranges. You could still have a LIW with PBS. There may be less open time though.

 

[sweptback]

Our system is every bit as globalized as what we fear of smartPref. How is it honoring seniority to award a line to a junior pilot purely because of preassigned credit and it forces a more senior pilot on reserve. Please, flight line cheerleaders, tell me how that honors seniority.

Because the PBS language was designed to maximize lineholders. This could be revisited in negotiations, but it also may not be.

For several reasons I don't think it's a big deal:

1. The person who gets reserve (while a junior pilot gets a line) would have most likely been on reserve without PBS
2. It only happens a few times a year -- not everybody has preassigned credit every month
3. It could be easily fixed by allowing for a pilot to complete a line if he was within a few hours of the window, but has no other pairings available to put him in the window.

I am not saying screw the junior pilots, but I think people make this out to be a bigger deal than it is. I don't know of anybody who was a lineholder prior to PBS that has been affected by this (and not another issue, such as backward movement).

I encourage all of you to go watch a PBS solution run at the office. It is not pure seniority ruling. We left that when we swithe from line bidding. There are human inputs that can alter the solution, decisions made by the PWG, not your seniority.

It is pure seniority in the sense that if you are SPECIFIC about your bid, you will not be denied a pairing if you can hold it.

The biases and sorts only really affect somebody who is vague about what they want. A pilot is always free to bid more specifically to avoid that issue, however most don't and therefore the options exist.

Now, when it comes to unstacking, there are decisions made about what days to unstack that may cause some junior pilots to avoid unstacking. But, a pilot is always free to bid his or her unstack bid sheet as detailed or as vaguely as possible.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Because the PBS language was designed to maximize lineholders. This could be revisited in negotiations, but it also may not be.

For several reasons I don't think it's a big deal:

1. The person who gets reserve (while a junior pilot gets a line) would have most likely been on reserve without PBS
2. It only happens a few times a year -- not everybody has preassigned credit every month
3. It could be easily fixed by allowing for a pilot to complete a line if he was within a few hours of the window, but has no other pairings available to put him in the window.

I am not saying screw the junior pilots, but I think people make this out to be a bigger deal than it is. I don't know of anybody who was a lineholder prior to PBS that has been affected by this (and not another issue, such as backward movement).



It is pure seniority in the sense that if you are SPECIFIC about your bid, you will not be denied a pairing if you can hold it.

The biases and sorts only really affect somebody who is vague about what they want. A pilot is always free to bid more specifically to avoid that issue, however most don't and therefore the options exist.

Now, when it comes to unstacking, there are decisions made about what days to unstack that may cause some junior pilots to avoid unstacking. But, a pilot is always free to bid his or her unstack bid sheet as detailed or as vaguely as possible.

Maximize lineholders!? Have you looked at how many of our pilots are on reserve? Over 20% of the captains IAD, 23% at DTW, 18% of FOs on the 200 ATL. It was never that high in line bidding.

The simple answer is NO. The flightline system does not honor seniority. Of course, our well fed union leaders continue their track record of looking out for the senior pilots at the expense of those junior. Your response rationalizes this failure by saying it doesn't happen often or that the old system would have piltos on reserve anyways. We have a group of people who decide how the bid solutions look, and it is absolutely possible for them manipulate the solutions. Globalize/socialize, whatever euphemism you choose to use, it is not honoring seniority, it's just got a casual relationship with it.

 

[79%N1]

Maximize lineholders!? Have you looked at how many of our pilots are on reserve? Over 20% of the captains IAD, 23% at DTW, 18% of FOs on the 200 ATL. It was never that high in line bidding.

.

You are 100%, unequivocally wrong about that!!! It's almost laughable. The first month PBS went live, I myself went from about 20 deep on reserve to over 50 lineholders below me. Dont let the facts get in the way of your rant, though.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

You are 100%, unequivocally wrong about that!!! It's almost laughable. The first month PBS went live, I myself went from about 20 deep on reserve to over 50 lineholders below me. Dont let the facts get in the way of your rant, though.

I don't think the guys in IAD and DTW are laughing.

 

[Freebrd]

THE ASA MEC HAS NOT PUBLICLY PUT OUT ANY INFORMATION ON SMARTPREF OR ANY RESEARCH REGARDING THE AFFORMENTIONED!

They do not plan to. We don't want them to. We are not asking them to. Its not going to happen, hasn't happened!!! ENOUGH!

Got that nevets? Your crap is old and stinky man, flush it!

 

[Nevets]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO QUIT WITH THIS?????

You are such a broken record!!!! The same thing over and over and over and over..........WE GET IT!!!!!!! Enough........................................

Here is your answer, once and for all..............

THE ASA MEC HAS NOT PUBLICLY PUT OUT ANY INFORMATION ON SMARTPREF OR ANY RESEARCH REGARDING THE AFFORMENTIONED!

They do not plan to. We don't want them to. We are not asking them to. Its not going to happen, hasn't happened!!! ENOUGH!

Trust me, as long as you guys are willing to keep this thread alive by posting on it, I'll be more than happy to keep stating facts.

I know they don't plan to. The question should be why are they keeping their own pilots in the dark? Maybe you should ask? Maybe you would be surprised?

 

[bigshooter107]

Trust me, as long as you guys are willing to keep this thread alive by posting on it, I'll be more than happy to keep stating facts.

I know they don't plan to. The question should be why are they keeping their own pilots in the dark? Maybe you should ask? Maybe you would be surprised?

What do u think is motivation for " keeping crj guys I the dark" for?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Trust me, as long as you guys are willing to keep this thread alive by posting on it, I'll be more than happy to keep stating facts.

I know they don't plan to. The question should be why are they keeping their own pilots in the dark? Maybe you should ask? Maybe you would be surprised?

I would not be surprised if members of the union have a financial arrangement with FlightLine and have a personal interest in keeping the service with them. No, I would not be surprised at all. That is 100% pure speculation. I have absolutely no facts to back that up with.

Keep in mind, probably 1% of the pilot group even has a flightinfo account, much less logs on, even much less takes this seriously...