Kid Charlemagne
It's OK, I speak Jive
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2003
- Posts
- 225
Response to Timebuilder
Timebuilder,
You say that God, not men, formed the Bible. Hmmmm....certainly I agree that the Councils of Carthage and Hippo were guided by the Holy Spirit in their deliberations...but fact remains these were councils of Catholic bishops...men of flesh and blood.
To say "God formed the Bible" is so over-reaching that it really says nothing at all. Since we know from history that the canon of Scripture had been in doubt...and then in early 5th century the Catholic Church called several councils that ended the controversy and formally settled the canon, I guess you're saying that "God" and the "Catholic Church" are interchangeable terms.
OK, maybe I am exaggerating a bit there, put my point remains. You can say "God" formed the Bible all you want...but it remains an undisputed historical fact that the Catholic Church (at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo) settled the question of the canon. So everytime you read the N.T. you are implicitly ackowledging the authority of the Church...whether u want to admit this or not. (And I don't expect you will want to).
If you really want to refute me...then expain USING HISTORICAL FACTS AND STEP-BY-STEP DESCRIPTIONS how the canon of the N.T. was settled!! To simply use a generalization like "God somehow did it" answers nothing and I think you are aware of that.
One more thing....after the Council of Hippo around 405 AD the question of the Canon of Scripture was resolved and no one questioned it for 1,100 years until Martin Luther came along and, ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, this de-frocked Augustinian monk and ex-communicated ackowledged heretic took it upon himself to "remove" 6 books from the O.T. that didn't accord to his new theology. BTW, he also wanted to remove a couple books from the N.T. (e.g. Epistle of James, Revelations) but his followers expalined that the common people would never accept that and so talked him out of it. Everything I've stated in this paragraph is not opinion, IT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AND ESTABLISHED HISTORICAL FACT NO SERIOUS HISTORIAN QUESTIONS!!
So here's my question to you.... How do you know the canon of your bible is correct? In other words...how do you know all the 60-odd books in your Protestant Bible are really inspired Scripture? You have no authoritative Church body to declare it to you and assure you it is so. And here is the kepper - since your Protestant Bible didn't exist for the first 3/4ths of Christian history, that means for all that time Christians (Catholic and Eastern Orthodox...and even various heretical Christian movements) WERE ALL USING A FALSE BIBLE !! And to this day Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (who make up the vast majority of Christians) use that same ancient Bible since they naturally deny that a de-frocked monk like Luther had the authority to single-handedly change the Bible. In fact, no Pope has ever claimed to have such power!! (nor has one ever attempted to do so).
So if the canon of the Bible could be changed after 1,100 years....it is completely illogical to state that it cannot be changed again in our own time by a modern-day Luther....esp. since only 500 years have passed now, not 1,100!! If you claim that could not happen....that no man in our time has the right to eliminate certain books and change the Bible...then why do you accept that Luther had the power to do it 500 years ago?? Who was Martin Luther to have such tremendous power vested in him? Would he not have to perform tremendous miracles to authenticate such a claim to authority? (Neither he nor his followers ever claimed he worked any miracles...except for the "miracle" of persuading a number of Catholics to abandon the faith of their fathers and embrace Luther's new theology).
And even if he had done wonders...ask yourself again if you would agree with any man today who claimed the power to change the Bible...EVEN IF that man performed some wonders or miracles or whatever.
To sum up, here are the questions for you:
1. When you say "read the Bible".....which Bible are you talking about? The "new" Bible only a fraction of Christians accept (Prot. Bible) or the ancient one accpeted by vast majority of Christians (the Cath. and Orthodox Bible.)? On what basis could a person determine which Bible to adhere to? (Remember the Protestant Bible is vastly different from all Christian Bibles that came before it - it contains 6 fewer books.)
2. Exactly how was the canon of the N.T. settled in the first place, if you deny what all historians ackowledge - namely that it was settled by the Catholic Church at Councils of Carthage and Hippo...(over a millenia before your Protestant religion even existed). Don't try to get away with "God did it"...tell us EXACTLY how it came about using historical FACTS!!
3. Who gave Martin Luther the authority to change the canon of Scripture after it had been settled for 1,100 years?
4. If some modern-day Martin Luther claimed the power to change the canon...how would you decide if he really had that authority or not? Why would you not grant him the same authority you do to Martin Luther? Do all de-frocked and ex-communicated former monks have a God-like power to drastically chage the Bible? Or only German ones? Or what?
5. Finally, try a thought-experiement. What if some traveler from the future came to you and said, "Hey, did you know 6 books in your Bible are bogus! They aren't really inspired like the rest of the Scriptures and someday in the future certain groups of Christians will reject them! Oh, who will decide that these books are un-inspired after all? An ecumenical Church Council? The Pope in Rome? The Patriarch of Constantinople? The Archbishop of Canterbury? Pat Robertson? No, my good man....a future de-frocked and ex-communicated former monk will ON HIS OWN authority decide to enlighten us that all our Bible have been wrong for all these centuries!!"
Now, imagine YOU are that time-traveler and you went back in time to the late Middle Ages - the quote above is exactly what you would have to say to some devout Catholic at the time!! And I'm sure like a good son of the Church he would laugh and think you must be completely unbalanced.
I will await your reply with interest.
P.S. To the guy who quoted Moses in Deuteronomy while making an argument for the self-sufficiency of Scripture: your quote has Moses saying "Do not add or subtract anythoing from these commands." Well, my friend Moses was talking about the Torah he had received from God and was giving to the Israelites....this was "the commands" he mentions. So if you really want to follow that quote...your Bible would consist of NOTHING BUT THE TORAH (first 5 books of O.T.)!!!! Anything else like the rest of O.T. not to mention the N.T. is certainly "adding to the commands" Moses was giving the Israelites!!
I'm not trying to embarrass you, just to get you to think before you speak (or write, in this case). The bottom line is simple and logical...without some outside authority like the Holy Catholic Church to declare what books are canonical...no one can know which books really belong in the Bible...since no book or writer can atest to his own inspiration. And you have proven you don't accept self-attesting "prophets"...that's why you reject Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, among others.
P.P.S. Timebuilder, you slam Catholics for "vain repetition" of prayers. It's not vain if you are praying with a sincere heart, my friend. And remember, the Lord Himself taught us to say the Lord's Prayer...are you saying each Christian can only say it once in a lifetime? If not, that what is the time limit before it becomes "vain repitition"? 2X a year you can say it? Twice a month? Three times per week? Or what? Or can you say it 3 times in a row, but not 5? Please enlighten us....
Timebuilder,
You say that God, not men, formed the Bible. Hmmmm....certainly I agree that the Councils of Carthage and Hippo were guided by the Holy Spirit in their deliberations...but fact remains these were councils of Catholic bishops...men of flesh and blood.
To say "God formed the Bible" is so over-reaching that it really says nothing at all. Since we know from history that the canon of Scripture had been in doubt...and then in early 5th century the Catholic Church called several councils that ended the controversy and formally settled the canon, I guess you're saying that "God" and the "Catholic Church" are interchangeable terms.
OK, maybe I am exaggerating a bit there, put my point remains. You can say "God" formed the Bible all you want...but it remains an undisputed historical fact that the Catholic Church (at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo) settled the question of the canon. So everytime you read the N.T. you are implicitly ackowledging the authority of the Church...whether u want to admit this or not. (And I don't expect you will want to).
If you really want to refute me...then expain USING HISTORICAL FACTS AND STEP-BY-STEP DESCRIPTIONS how the canon of the N.T. was settled!! To simply use a generalization like "God somehow did it" answers nothing and I think you are aware of that.
One more thing....after the Council of Hippo around 405 AD the question of the Canon of Scripture was resolved and no one questioned it for 1,100 years until Martin Luther came along and, ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, this de-frocked Augustinian monk and ex-communicated ackowledged heretic took it upon himself to "remove" 6 books from the O.T. that didn't accord to his new theology. BTW, he also wanted to remove a couple books from the N.T. (e.g. Epistle of James, Revelations) but his followers expalined that the common people would never accept that and so talked him out of it. Everything I've stated in this paragraph is not opinion, IT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AND ESTABLISHED HISTORICAL FACT NO SERIOUS HISTORIAN QUESTIONS!!
So here's my question to you.... How do you know the canon of your bible is correct? In other words...how do you know all the 60-odd books in your Protestant Bible are really inspired Scripture? You have no authoritative Church body to declare it to you and assure you it is so. And here is the kepper - since your Protestant Bible didn't exist for the first 3/4ths of Christian history, that means for all that time Christians (Catholic and Eastern Orthodox...and even various heretical Christian movements) WERE ALL USING A FALSE BIBLE !! And to this day Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (who make up the vast majority of Christians) use that same ancient Bible since they naturally deny that a de-frocked monk like Luther had the authority to single-handedly change the Bible. In fact, no Pope has ever claimed to have such power!! (nor has one ever attempted to do so).
So if the canon of the Bible could be changed after 1,100 years....it is completely illogical to state that it cannot be changed again in our own time by a modern-day Luther....esp. since only 500 years have passed now, not 1,100!! If you claim that could not happen....that no man in our time has the right to eliminate certain books and change the Bible...then why do you accept that Luther had the power to do it 500 years ago?? Who was Martin Luther to have such tremendous power vested in him? Would he not have to perform tremendous miracles to authenticate such a claim to authority? (Neither he nor his followers ever claimed he worked any miracles...except for the "miracle" of persuading a number of Catholics to abandon the faith of their fathers and embrace Luther's new theology).
And even if he had done wonders...ask yourself again if you would agree with any man today who claimed the power to change the Bible...EVEN IF that man performed some wonders or miracles or whatever.
To sum up, here are the questions for you:
1. When you say "read the Bible".....which Bible are you talking about? The "new" Bible only a fraction of Christians accept (Prot. Bible) or the ancient one accpeted by vast majority of Christians (the Cath. and Orthodox Bible.)? On what basis could a person determine which Bible to adhere to? (Remember the Protestant Bible is vastly different from all Christian Bibles that came before it - it contains 6 fewer books.)
2. Exactly how was the canon of the N.T. settled in the first place, if you deny what all historians ackowledge - namely that it was settled by the Catholic Church at Councils of Carthage and Hippo...(over a millenia before your Protestant religion even existed). Don't try to get away with "God did it"...tell us EXACTLY how it came about using historical FACTS!!
3. Who gave Martin Luther the authority to change the canon of Scripture after it had been settled for 1,100 years?
4. If some modern-day Martin Luther claimed the power to change the canon...how would you decide if he really had that authority or not? Why would you not grant him the same authority you do to Martin Luther? Do all de-frocked and ex-communicated former monks have a God-like power to drastically chage the Bible? Or only German ones? Or what?
5. Finally, try a thought-experiement. What if some traveler from the future came to you and said, "Hey, did you know 6 books in your Bible are bogus! They aren't really inspired like the rest of the Scriptures and someday in the future certain groups of Christians will reject them! Oh, who will decide that these books are un-inspired after all? An ecumenical Church Council? The Pope in Rome? The Patriarch of Constantinople? The Archbishop of Canterbury? Pat Robertson? No, my good man....a future de-frocked and ex-communicated former monk will ON HIS OWN authority decide to enlighten us that all our Bible have been wrong for all these centuries!!"
Now, imagine YOU are that time-traveler and you went back in time to the late Middle Ages - the quote above is exactly what you would have to say to some devout Catholic at the time!! And I'm sure like a good son of the Church he would laugh and think you must be completely unbalanced.
I will await your reply with interest.
P.S. To the guy who quoted Moses in Deuteronomy while making an argument for the self-sufficiency of Scripture: your quote has Moses saying "Do not add or subtract anythoing from these commands." Well, my friend Moses was talking about the Torah he had received from God and was giving to the Israelites....this was "the commands" he mentions. So if you really want to follow that quote...your Bible would consist of NOTHING BUT THE TORAH (first 5 books of O.T.)!!!! Anything else like the rest of O.T. not to mention the N.T. is certainly "adding to the commands" Moses was giving the Israelites!!
I'm not trying to embarrass you, just to get you to think before you speak (or write, in this case). The bottom line is simple and logical...without some outside authority like the Holy Catholic Church to declare what books are canonical...no one can know which books really belong in the Bible...since no book or writer can atest to his own inspiration. And you have proven you don't accept self-attesting "prophets"...that's why you reject Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, among others.
P.P.S. Timebuilder, you slam Catholics for "vain repetition" of prayers. It's not vain if you are praying with a sincere heart, my friend. And remember, the Lord Himself taught us to say the Lord's Prayer...are you saying each Christian can only say it once in a lifetime? If not, that what is the time limit before it becomes "vain repitition"? 2X a year you can say it? Twice a month? Three times per week? Or what? Or can you say it 3 times in a row, but not 5? Please enlighten us....