I am lost

[The Drizzle]

yeah, unfortunately RJs are pretty much idiot proof(yes that has been disproven) especially the ERJ, so 250 hour wonders will be able to push it through the sky.

 

[urflyingme?!]

To answer the other guys question, do a search I think you will find that every pay for training school gets the flak it's not just MesaPD although they get the majority because they are the lowest of the low pft programs.

PFT, what a joke!

I don't recall paying for any 121 training pops. Why don't you put down the crack pipe and realize that it's just one of many ways to get to where you want to be.

If you want to be an airline pilot, not a cfi, why do a disservice to your students by "builing time" at there expense. I flew with a couple of guys who just talked all day about their interviews and job offers etc. CFI'ing or Freight IS a great way to learn a lot about flying. But in my opinion what's more important is getting on with a carrier and getting seniority over having better message board 'cred........

PFT, what a joker!

 

[SkyBoy1981]

yeah, unfortunately RJs are pretty much idiot proof(yes that has been disproven) especially the ERJ, so 250 hour wonders will be able to push it through the sky.

My concern is more when a 250 hour MAPD grad upgrades several thousand hours later, with no real experience doing anything but sitting in the right seat of that RJ. At least a freight or charter guy has a wider range of experience to apply to the decisions that he/she will be making as a Captain.

 

[urflyingme?!]

My concern is more when a 250 hour MAPD grad upgrades several thousand hours later, with no real experience doing anything but sitting in the right seat of that RJ. At least a freight or charter guy has a wider range of experience to apply to the decisions that he/she will be making as a Captain.

Except for 3+ YEARS of 121 experience day in and out in that exact aircraft in that exact enviroment!

 

[The Drizzle]

Except for 3+ YEARS of 121 experience day in and out in that exact aircraft in that exact enviroment!

this is true, if the FO isn't a complete moron, plenty of experience can be gained. it helps to have captains that want to foster that in the FOs, luckily that has been my experience.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Except for 3+ YEARS of 121 experience day in and out in that exact aircraft in that exact enviroment!

That isn't the same as the guy that flew single pilot freight around in the middle of the night avoiding thunderstorms. Being able to confidently make decisions in my opinion is easier to learn in an RJ if you've done it before in something smaller and slower. Taking a guy who has never had to make the decisions and putting him in the left seat of a 50-90 seat jet isn't a good practice in my opinion. Like I said, its just my opinion.

 

[urflyingme?!]

That isn't the same as the guy that flew single pilot freight around in the middle of the night avoiding thunderstorms. Being able to confidently make decisions in my opinion is easier to learn in an RJ if you've done it before in something smaller and slower. Taking a guy who has never had to make the decisions and putting him in the left seat of a 50-90 seat jet isn't a good practice in my opinion. Like I said, its just my opinion.

And my opinion is that the Tstorms I have been avoiding are reall as well, and my decisions, just as real

 

[SkyBoy1981]

And my opinion is that the Tstorms I have been avoiding are reall as well, and my decisions, just as real

You'll see the difference when you're a Captain.

 

[Dubya]

I had an old man instructor and learned quite a bit from him. No, they may not be as sharp when it comes to silly little pointless procedures that a lot of these schools like to throw into their curriculum, but they can teach basic stick and rudder skills better than any 20 year old with 250 hours.

Yeah...stalls shmalls I say..and who needs SE approaches and Vmc Demos? Power off landings? bah Chandelles and lazy 8's...waste of time. Turns around a point...i can divide my attention just fine. You know...just throw the dam PTS out the window right? All those silly little maneuvers and procedures.

Dumbass


W

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Yeah...stalls shmalls I say..and who needs SE approaches and Vmc Demos? Power off landings? bah Chandelles and lazy 8's...waste of time. Turns around a point...i can divide my attention just fine. You know...just throw the dam PTS out the window right? All those silly little maneuvers and procedures.

Dumbass


W

Uhh...that would be included in stick and rudder skills, not exactly the pointless little procedures I was referring to. Basically what I'm saying is that some old fart FBO instructor may not teach you to do a perfect departure brefing, when to turn the strobe lights on and off, or insist that you do a bunch of ridiculous callouts while flying around in a 172, but most of them can teach you how to fly the damm airplane better than the average 20 year old ABC Regional Academy CFI.

I think these type of schools put too much focus on making it feel like an airline and not enough on teaching people how to fly. When its time to be a freakin airline pilot, you can learn to be an airline pilot. For starters, lets learn how to fly a dammed plane first. But hey, thats just me.

 

[CX880]

PFT, what a joke!

I don't recall paying for any 121 training pops. Why don't you put down the crack pipe and realize that it's just one of many ways to get to where you want to be.


PFT, what a joker!

Uhh, so you don't agree that Mesa pd is pft? You don't agree that ATPs Airline Transition Program is PFT? You know that you are paying to get a job when you can't find a job at any other airline with your hours except for those ones that your school has partnerships with or when you don't have to be a CFI. I'm not saying that all pilot mills are PFT, just a few.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

The people coming out of MAPD can find any job you could get coming from your fbo or whatever. Just because I dont have my CFI today doesn't mean I can't have it in 3 weeks. (Do you recall getting recruited to fly freight the day after your special non-MAPD commercial ride???)

You're wrong... Say you get furloughed from your nice shiny jet. And say you maybe have a grand totall of 1500hrs.... I doubt you would even find a job flying a Baron 135.. Your decision making skills have never really been tested, you have had someone holding your hand the whole way.. You could get your CFI but you won't.. You have already proven that you would rather pay a stupid amount of money just to get into a jet. Managment says take this crap contract or you're gonna lose jobs, you can't do anything else so you gotta take it.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

The USAF has 250 hr PIC's flying fighters. European and Asian carriers have Ab Initio programs that put low time pilots in large transport aircraft.

Welll,
Not quite the same, those 250hr wonders, are the pick of the litter, chosen based upon their abilities and constantly monitored, evaluated and culled from the already small herd without mercy. The end result is the cream of the crop rises to the top. On the otherhand the regional 250hr wonder is chosen solely upon his/her credit rating and ability to pay the cost of admittance. You can keep argueing that your 250hrs of mapd training equals thousands of hours of flying freight, single pilot or CFIing hundreds of students trying to kill them with stupidity. The traditional path to the airline flying has always weeded out the unsats or the ones without the desire to endure, mapd program and others like it allow the unsats, and other previously mentioned a fast track to said airlines. The only saving grace is the RJs are so easy to fly that almost any private pilot can fly one. The RJs are not so easy to operate, there is a vast difference between flying and operating, if you gotta ask what that difference is, you are not an operator.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

And my opinion is that the Tstorms I have been avoiding are reall as well, and my decisions, just as real

Welll,
Your opinion means nothing, you are just the gear biatch, the Captain avoids the thunderstorms, and well, the decision to rub one off before you dress up for work vs after you dress up and watch youself in the mirror is a decision, true, its just not that important to anyone but you.
PBR

 

[spitfire1500]

What is worse are these kids teaching kids how to fly. CFIing should be something retired people do, not someone who just passed the 200 hour mark.

Someone who retires doesn't want to put up with the bull%hit!!

 

[spitfire1500]

I have read many threads knocking around MAPD people, I agree no 250 hr pilot should be near a jet. But why only bash Mesa for this when FSI offers the same course with people getting jobs at Eagle/ASA/TSA/ExpressJet. Those airlines to would be at fault for this practice, but yet it is never mentioned. Just wondering?

British Airways, Lufthansa and most European airlines have low time pilots they trained from the ground up. I didnt learn this way but at the time if the option was available I would have.

 

[Hypoxik]

The ASU MAPD program also puts out 350hr. pilots due to the fact they are required to get their CFI and CFII. Also there is not a DPE on staff. So in the end you earn each ride especially the CFI. Also, I know a lot of MAPD that have gone on to Skywest, ExpressJet, and Charter/Freight. I personally went there for all training and was instructing there my senior year. It is a good program, and only the good pilots made it through. Now the farmington program....

I admit that my current 135 pax job has done a lot for me, and feel way more prepared for a Regional Jet. Each individual is different.

 

[atlcrashpad]

I agree that USAF and other services are better pilots at 250hrs than FBO. What I don't understand is the bias or prejudices against FSI or any other controlled school. Doesn't the FAA set guidelines and standards? Yes they do and someone coming from one of those schools has met those standards. Another thing I find funny is the PFT hatred. A guy pours his savings and/or credit into a training program and he is called SCUM. Do ya call ya Doctor a scumbag for paying for his medical school? I think not.

Before I get slammed, I'm a former military pilot who got a break in the 121 biz. But, I feel for these young guys who needed a break.

The comment about Asian carriers using mostly second officers, well my cousin flies for British Airways and went from 700 hrs to the ATP( formerly 748) to the right seat of a 767. He is now a Captain on the 747-400 after 15 yrs. He has tons of stories about guys just like him.

 

[LXJ31]

A guy pours his savings and/or credit into a training program and he is called SCUM. Do ya call ya Doctor a scumbag for paying for his medical school? I think not.

I'm sorry, I am not the brightest guy but did you just compare a top of the line academic who spends 10-12 years at highly competitive universities and medical schools, plus internships and residency, to a shmuck who desperately wants to be taken seriously after mortgaging grandma's house and training for a whole 9-15 months for a job that pays $20k/year?

Look, even I don't want to see another PFT beatdown, but if you have the slightest interest in your own credibility, please don't compare doctors to, you know, CRJ seat meat.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why are pilots paid what they are paid? Is it a mistake, a cruel hoax perpetuated at the airline's expense?

Suppose for a moment that there was no airline union and you were told you had to negotiate your own pay rate based solely on your qualifications and what the employer valued, and that in following years you would only recieve annual percentage pay increases. What would the 250 hour wonder say? How about the 500 hour guy? How about the 8000 hour furloughee? Does anyone see how difficult it would be to make this a career when so many are willing to treat it as a job and take the exploitation in exchange for the opportunity to do something "cool"?

If Johns-Hopkins offered a 2-day neurosurgeon class, how many would flock to do it and how would they be recieved by the rest of the medical community? And suppose the patients never had a clue since they all wore the same blue scrubs.

With no real experience for the person in the right seat, should the entire concept of two-man crew be re-thought? I mean it's a single pilot operation for the first day the 250 hour guy starts and the airline is willing to accept that risk one day. Why not every day?

 

[atlcrashpad]

I'm sorry, I am not the brightest guy but did you just compare a top of the line academic who spends 10-12 years at highly competitive universities and medical schools, plus internships and residency, to a shmuck who desperately wants to be taken seriously after mortgaging grandma's house and training for a whole 9-15 months for a job that pays $20k/year?

Look, even I don't want to see another PFT beatdown, but if you have the slightest interest in your own credibility, please don't compare doctors to, you know, CRJ seat meat.

OK, how about anyone who pays for their education? Weather it is an MD or Associates or a certificate in auto mechanics. All civilian pilots have paid in one way or another for their training. I got my Commercial via the Military, but I paid for my ATP. Note: I wasn't trying to compare Doctors to Pilots, just people who pay for their education.

 

[urflyingme?!]

It is a good program, and only the good pilots made it through. Now the farmington program....

Both programs are the same, and FMN has no DPE on staff. I don't know where u get that info from...

 

[urflyingme?!]

Welll,
Your opinion means nothing, you are just the gear biatch, the Captain avoids the thunderstorms, and well, the decision to rub one off before you dress up for work vs after you dress up and watch youself in the mirror is a decision, true, its just not that important to anyone but you.
PBR

SO last week when the CA sequenced the FMS incorrectly and we almost flew straight back to the runway at 750 AGL, and I disconnected the autopilot, hand flew the aircraft in IMC and had him correct the problem my opinion didn't mean anything?

Come on pal, I don't think I'm anything different, and neither do my CA's. Most of them have no idea where I came from, and if I tell them, they say great, you know what your doing then... Bottom line is I went to a legit program that provides what is advertised and provides a direct, foreseeable plan on how to get the desired position.

I don't mean any offense to people who did or who are doing things differently, but when I talk to my buddy who is using sign language to teach chinese pilots in Daytona while making $7/hr , I feel like I made a solid choice. I paid the same as I was back home, and it took less time, and I got my AA, and I'm almost done with my BS.

Stop crying

 

[urflyingme?!]

Uhh, so you don't agree that Mesa pd is pft? You don't agree that ATPs Airline Transition Program is PFT? You know that you are paying to get a job when you can't find a job at any other airline with your hours except for those ones that your school has partnerships with or when you don't have to be a CFI. I'm not saying that all pilot mills are PFT, just a few.

PFT= PAY FOR [AIRLINE] TRAINING.

I paid for my ratings, just like u will. I could go anywhere that joe FBO could, I actually towed banners for the last half of last summer, and had an offer to teach if I got my CFI. Where did you here that we can't go anywhere else? I'm really curious, really very interested in this myth. BECAUSE IT IS SO COMPLETELY RETARDED

 

[urflyingme?!]

You're wrong... Say you get furloughed from your nice shiny jet. And say you maybe have a grand totall of 1500hrs.... I doubt you would even find a job flying a Baron 135.. Your decision making skills have never really been tested, you have had someone holding your hand the whole way.. You could get your CFI but you won't.. You have already proven that you would rather pay a stupid amount of money just to get into a jet. Managment says take this crap contract or you're gonna lose jobs, you can't do anything else so you gotta take it.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Let's see. I walk into said interview with 1300 Multi-Jet-121 experience. Why won't I be able to get a good job. And by the way, even if I DO get furloughed, wouldn't I just be going back to where I WOULD have been anyway at that period in my progression if I hadn't been at an airline?? What's the big deal?

I can see it now... "Well, you meet the total time, and you flew 600 hours in the last 8 mo, but I really want someone who was flying smaller, slower, less complex aircraft into quieter airspace..."

 

[urflyingme?!]

OK, how about anyone who pays for their education? Weather it is an MD or Associates or a certificate in auto mechanics. All civilian pilots have paid in one way or another for their training. I got my Commercial via the Military, but I paid for my ATP. Note: I wasn't trying to compare Doctors to Pilots, just people who pay for their education.

EXACTLY The PFT in MAPD's case is a complete misnomer. You might as well call us Nazi's(They had airplanes!)

 

[Dumb Pilot]

One Brand, One Pilot Group, No More Outsourcing

The one thing I'm lost about is how the mainline drivers ever accepted outsourcing of their flying, at all? What we have now is 300 hour F/O's flying mainline passengers around in mainline financed A/C's all unified under a "Brand" but pilots with thousands of hours on furlough and again, 300 hour generation Xr's flying paying costumers around. That is what I'm absolutely lost about.

 

[SBD]

I was previously employed by DCA as a flight intrustor. I moved on and no longer working there. DCA is a very expensive place. But what they do is put out very highly trained pilots. No, not every graduate of DCA is the top notch pilot, but that goes for every program, FBO etc. What DCA does is give someone (not everyone who goes there is a 20 year rich boy) the opportunity to build valuable time flight instructing. It is very rare that someone leaves there with less than 1000TT and 100(multi). No DCA is not the only answer to getting on with a regional. Their marketing team does a great job telling people that DCA is the best. Most of their graduates make it through the airline training and are at numerous regionals. I think it all comes down to the individual. If you are motivated and focused you can make it. But if you think because you payed x amount of dollars for training, and something is owed to you than you are sadly mistaken. As far as the MAPD program, my only problem is what happens if you get furloughed after x amount of time there? You have no CFI ratings unless you did it on your own, so what are you going to do after? With 500 hours TT, not to may places are going to look at you.

 

[Hypoxik]

Thats why it is good to be a Sun Devil!!! CFI and CFII!
MESA Brown Jackets eh?!?!?!? Um....don't you mean purple???

MBJ..what happened to a good old rivalry? FMN gets to you doesnt it!

 

[urflyingme?!]

Thats why it is good to be a Sun Devil!!! CFI and CFII!
MESA Brown Jackets eh?!?!?!? Um....don't you mean purple???

MBJ..what happened to a good old rivalry? FMN gets to you doesnt it!

Well I think we figured it out.

FMN Fatigue, is what we called it. For a fair comparison you need 3 months of r&r before comparing FMN guys to anybody. (shellshock!)