I am lost

[sflax]

I have read many threads knocking around MAPD people, I agree no 250 hr pilot should be near a jet. But why only bash Mesa for this when FSI offers the same course with people getting jobs at Eagle/ASA/TSA/ExpressJet. Those airlines to would be at fault for this practice, but yet it is never mentioned. Just wondering?

 

[DoinTime]

I have read many threads knocking around MAPD people, I agree no 250 hr pilot should be near a jet. But why only bash Mesa for this when FSI offers the same course with people getting jobs at Eagle/ASA/TSA/ExpressJet. Those airlines to would be at fault for this practice, but yet it is never mentioned. Just wondering?

It's because most people on this board are hypocrites with a predisposed hatred towards certain work groups whether they know anything about them or not.

 

[WateryGrave]

Spoken like a true Pinnacle pilot.

 

[DoinTime]

Spoken like a true Pinnacle pilot.

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone proved my point.

 

[g-code]

I thought it was funny. However the skeleton made it funnier than it should have been.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I have never met a 250 hour FO at ExpressJet from any program.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

I have read many threads knocking around MAPD people, I agree no 250 hr pilot should be near a jet. But why only bash Mesa for this when FSI offers the same course with people getting jobs at Eagle/ASA/TSA/ExpressJet. Those airlines to would be at fault for this practice, but yet it is never mentioned. Just wondering?

I think alot of what it has to do with is the fact that these 250...500..ect. Are one of the reasons the regionals are in the state the are in right now. Managment knows if they offer people a chance to fly a jet with low time they can also pay them much less than someone who has taken the time and effort to learn and go through the normal progression. Think about it you spend 60k to get through a program like MAPD or FSI ect. Your goal is to fly for a regional, you can't go fly 135, most of these places you don't even instruct a single student. You can only do one thing.. Fly for that regional thats going to offer you poor pay and crappy work rules.

The resentment comes from the people who have taken the time to instruct, fly 135, ect. They have put their time in but now are being forced to accept crap pay when they should start to see a return on the work they have done...

 

[Optimax200]

obviously you never met Semak's boy.....

 

[SkyBoy1981]

obviously you never met Semak's boy.....

For obvious reasons that case is not relevent to the discussion at hand.

There are no 250 hour FSI grads at ExpressJet. My understanding is the mins for that are still 500 hours. Not a lot, but thats still twice as much as the kids coming out of the MAPD program.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

For obvious reasons that case is not relevent to the discussion at hand.

There are no 250 hour FSI grads at ExpressJet. My understanding is the mins for that are still 500 hours. Not a lot, but thats still twice as much as the kids coming out of the MAPD program.

Mins are 600/100 When I was hired I think most where at the 1000+ mark

 

[Turkey Shoot]

For obvious reasons that case is not relevent to the discussion at hand.

There are no 250 hour FSI grads at ExpressJet. My understanding is the mins for that are still 500 hours. Not a lot, but thats still twice as much as the kids coming out of the MAPD program.

Wow! 500 hours?!?! That must must be alot of time spent instructing or flying freight through thunderstorms. Heck, I had twice that much dual given and an extra job on the side flying a 210. Glorious! But if only I had gone to a pilot mill, I could have svaed myself all that hassle of paying my dues.

 

[taylor01]

Bushhatesyou,
Last time i checked it wasnt new hires with 500 hours voting on contract which dictate their starting pay. Its the pilots and their negiotation committee, who have been at that airline for at least a year, who negiotiate with management on their contract which awards the ********************ty pay scale. You say you spent years paying your dues flight 1000 plus hours, but dont you ever say that if you had the oppurtunity to fly a regoinal jet at 500 hours you wouldnt, you would, everyone of us would. If you have a problem with your contract and your pay dont bitch at the new hires who are just trying to do they best they can with no knowledge of how the industry works, get involved with your union, educate current cfi's and let them know how the industry works, what their options are, which airlines to try and aviod, etc...

 

[taylor01]

Oh wait Bushhatesyou, you flew a pa-34, you must ten time more experienced than I and have all the answers to all of our industries problems.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

Bushhatesyou,
Last time i checked it wasnt new hires with 500 hours voting on contract which dictate their starting pay. Its the pilots and their negiotation committee, who have been at that airline for at least a year, who negiotiate with management on their contract which awards the ********************ty pay scale. You say you spent years paying your dues flight 1000 plus hours, but dont you ever say that if you had the oppurtunity to fly a regoinal jet at 500 hours you wouldnt, you would, everyone of us would. If you have a problem with your contract and your pay dont bitch at the new hires who are just trying to do they best they can with no knowledge of how the industry works, get involved with your union, educate current cfi's and let them know how the industry works, what their options are, which airlines to try and aviod, etc...

You are right you have to be there at least a year to vote on your contract. Like I said the pilot mills are just one reason things are they way they are. It's hard to maintain a good contract when another group lets the bar drop. i.e. the downward spiral. 250 hr pilots who sit after a year probably have no more than 1000 hours, no pic time, they still can;t go anywhere.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

Oh wait Bushhatesyou, you flew a pa-34, you must ten time more experienced than I and have all the answers to all of our industries problems.

I'm guessing you work for Mesa... And whats a PA-34?

 

[taylor01]

How long how you been with your regional?

 

[Bushhatesyou]

At XJT... Not long at all.... In the regional industry.. Long enough..

Why are you so defensive? The question this post asked was, why do people look down on 250 pft guys...

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Wow! 500 hours?!?! That must must be alot of time spent instructing or flying freight through thunderstorms. Heck, I had twice that much dual given and an extra job on the side flying a 210. Glorious! But if only I had gone to a pilot mill, I could have svaed myself all that hassle of paying my dues.

I never said 500 was enough. I said it was twice as much as the folks from the MAPD program. If it were up to me no flight instructors would be hired to fly regional jets...but it isn't.

 

[AdamKooper]

What is worse are these kids teaching kids how to fly. CFIing should be something retired people do, not someone who just passed the 200 hour mark.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

What is worse are these kids teaching kids how to fly. CFIing should be something retired people do, not someone who just passed the 200 hour mark.

yeah, like teaching someone to be a private pilot is soooo difficult. sheeesh. I'd rather have some young sharp kid who has this stuff fresh in his mind than some old man.

During my training, on occasion, I would have older guys who did charter on the side fly progs with me. These guys many times taught less and didnt know their manuevers very well.

Most of these fresh and green kids do a fine job going from PPL to CFI. If anything, its the individuals abilty to teach, not their age.

Doing somethign meaningful with any of these ratings such as acquiring experience will only come with time and flying.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I had an old man instructor and learned quite a bit from him. No, they may not be as sharp when it comes to silly little pointless procedures that a lot of these schools like to throw into their curriculum, but they can teach basic stick and rudder skills better than any 20 year old with 250 hours.

 

[atlcrashpad]

I have read many threads knocking around MAPD people, I agree no 250 hr pilot should be near a jet. But why only bash Mesa for this when FSI offers the same course with people getting jobs at Eagle/ASA/TSA/ExpressJet. Those airlines to would be at fault for this practice, but yet it is never mentioned. Just wondering?

The USAF has 250 hr PIC's flying fighters. European and Asian carriers have Ab Initio programs that put low time pilots in large transport aircraft.

 

[CX880]

The USAF has 250 hr PIC's flying fighters. European and Asian carriers have Ab Initio programs that put low time pilots in large transport aircraft.

Those USAF kids with 250 hrs are there because they are the best of the best in flying and in life, and I don't care if those 250 hrs in the military is just sim time, still they have a tough training in the military. Don't confuse them with 250 hour FBO kids. The abinitio programs in asian carreirs are for second officers meaning they are cruise pilots, they don't actually fly. Asian carriers aren't that desperate for pilots they get plenty of pilots from Australia and Canada.

To answer the other guys question, do a search I think you will find that every pay for training school gets the flak it's not just MesaPD although they get the majority because they are the lowest of the low pft programs.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Those USAF kids with 250 hrs are there because they are the best of the best in flying and in life, and I don't care if those 250 hrs in the military is just sim time, still they have a tough training in the military. Don't confuse them with 250 hour FBO kids. The abinitio programs in asian carreirs are for second officers meaning they are cruise pilots, they don't actually fly. Asian carriers aren't that desperate for pilots they get plenty of pilots from Australia and Canada.

To answer the other guys question, do a search I think you will find that every pay for training school gets the flak it's not just MesaPD although they get the majority because they are the lowest of the low pft programs.

Correct, but a 250 hour MAPD, DCA, or FSI kid is no different than a 250 hour FBO kid in my opinion.

 

[The Drizzle]

Correct, but a 250 hour MAPD, DCA, or FSI kid is no different than a 250 hour FBO kid in my opinion.

I'm just curious as to why your opinion should be so valued? You seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself. Or at least that is what you portray yourself as. I hope you aren't this much of a mouth in person, I would really feel for your captains. But what would I know, I was "just" a CFI for 2000 hours.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I'm just curious as to why your opinion should be so valued? You seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself. Or at least that is what you portray yourself as. I hope you aren't this much of a mouth in person, I would really feel for your captains. But what would I know, I was "just" a CFI for 2000 hours.

I merely stated my opinions, just like everyone else on this site does. I believe that pilots should fly charter, freight, or something along those lines before getting a job at an airline. I did, and I benefited tremendously from it. If airlines hired from a pool of freight and charter pilots instead of 500 hour instructors I think it would be better for everyone.

What part of that do you not agree with?

 

[The Drizzle]

500 hour anypilots are a bad idea IMO. i never stepped foot in a charter/freight operation, i had no problems at all trasitioning but then i didn't have 500 hours only

 

[urflyingme?!]

Wow, some really big talk here, again...

1. I think it goes without saying that a school that puts out less than 100 pilots a year doesn't have a real effect on the industry, period.

2. A 250 hour guy gets the same pay as the 3000 hour guy.

3. The people coming out of MAPD can find any job you could get coming from your fbo or whatever. Just because I dont have my CFI today doesn't mean I can't have it in 3 weeks. (Do you recall getting recruited to fly freight the day after your special non-MAPD commercial ride???)

4. There is a bias against MAPD. I refer to it as, "Flightinfo/internet tough guy syndrome."

Any thoughts from our gallery of the top aviation minds?

 

[Turkey Shoot]

So how much did you instruct or did you get into the right seat to fly freight. The thing with instruction is that you soon discover that everybody (even you) makes the same mistakes. Makes for one to be a bit more humble when you arrive at the next level.

BTW, I've done single pilot ops for a timber guy. Flew into some God Forsaken strips in the woods and through some nasty crap (all with no autopilot-- Four hours flying by hand sucks). Instructing was a much more difficult thing to do well. I'll take a guy with 1000 dual given than anybody who greased his way into a charter gig at 400 hours. The CFI seen way more mistakes and understands the fundamentals much better. You know, the old "Pitch, Power and Trim;" in that order. Works just as well in a jet as a single recip.

So as to be down on the PFT tool sheds? They're fakes and phonies. Buying their way into an industry doesn't demonstrate much fortitude to me. I wouldn't want someone of that caliber to have my back when the proverbial fan was hit with cow dung.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I don't have a problem with their program, I have a problem with 250 hour pilots in an RJ. But, as someone else pointed out, what I think doesn't really matter I suppose. ;-)