how would you handle this situation

[CUEBOAT]

Training flight in a duchess(light twin) with a student onboard, simulated engine failure with a full shut down. The prop is feathered. Attemt to air re-start with accumulator doesn't work. Attemt to restart using the starter doesn't work. So it has to be landed with it fully feathered.

would you declare an emergency and land or would you just land with no emergency?

 

[mainah]

Declare an emergency just in case something should happen. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Pipeliner606]

I remember when I first started training back in '89 at Spartan in Tulsa, one of our Duchess' had the same problem. I have seen that plane land more times on one engine than two. I think every A & P at Riverside Airport worked on it, and it still had problems. Just like you said, it wouldnt unfeather, and wouldnt start by cranking. Never heard of any of the guys declaring an emergency though, but it might be a good idea. Better safe than sorry!

 

[JimNtexas]

If you are going into a controlled field you can try to dance around your situation by saying something manly like "we need to be number one to land" or "we have a little problem". ATC may or may not win this guessing game, but at least you won't lose style points for using the dreaded 'E' word.

If ATC does suspect you have an emergency and asks you about it, don't give a simple straightforward answer. That's unmanly. Instead give them a Zen Koan like "call it what you will". That'll show them who has the macho.

Of course, since it is unmanly to declare an emergency and thereby put ATC on your team, you get to test them when they expect you taxi back after landing and you can't do it on one engine.

And since you are a macho man who dances around the 'E' word, you'll be all ready for a single engine go around when ATC decides to break you out of the pattern for sequencing. Better you spend extra time driving around a crippled airplane than appear unmanly by using the 'E' word.

It's even better if you enter the pattern at an uncontrolled field. At a controlled field you only have to deal with the tower local controller. But at an uncontrolled field you have a whole pattern full of airplanes coming and going. It would be extremely unmanly to tell these other pilots (some who don't have english as a first language) that they need to give you traffic priority.

So just drop a few coy hints and drop right onto final.

Losing an engine in a Dutchess is usually no big deal. You can probably fly right back and land with no problem. There is no need to use any sort of that sissy CRM stuff with other pilots or the ATC system. Keep them in the dark and feed them BS.

No, a real pilot never uses the 'E' word, he dies like a (stupid) man.

 

[stillaboo]

Training flight in a duchess(light twin) with a student onboard, simulated engine failure with a full shut down. The prop is feathered. Attemt to air re-start with accumulator doesn't work. Attemt to restart using the starter doesn't work. So it has to be landed with it fully feathered.

Who cares if it's a training flight, if a student is onboard, if the engine was shut down on-purpose, etc. Light twins barely fly with one engine inop, even when it's feathered. Who's to say the other one won't die too? Would you declare an emergency then, or wait to see if it feathered too?

When you lose an engine, that is an emergency. Done.

'Safety, Regs, Common Sense', in that order. Declaring an emergency is the safest thing to do. The regs direct you too. Commons sense should dictate you declare too. Why would you not?

 

[Pipeliner606]

There is no shame in declaring an emergency if you need to. Anyone who tells you different has no business behind the controls of anything that flies. A guy from Texas killed his whole family in a Seneca V not too far from me last Thanksgiving, at McAlester, OK. They were enroute to Missouri when he started getting low oil pressure readings on one engine. The story I got says he called his A & P, explained the situation to him, and the A & P tells him as long as he is not getting a rise in engine temp and the engine is still running, just find the nearest airport and land to have it checked. Instead, mister super pilot tells the A & P that those engines are too expensive to risk, and he shuts it down anyway (stupid mistake #1). They are not far from McAlester, so he calls his position and states he is inbound. No mention of being single engine, no declaration of emergency. On short final, he decides he is too high, too fast, something, and decides to GO AROUND, with four people and full baggage (stupid mistake #2). Still no mention of an engine out, decaration of emergency, nothing. He stalls the plane, and spins in, killing his whole family. ANyone still believe it is sissy to declare an emergency?

 

[Riddle momma]

If not for the sake of being safe, do it as a good example for your student. Don't teach them to be "manly". Teach them to be smart girls and they can later develop into dumb men...

Oh... I know its comming!!! But I couldn't keep my mouth shut!

 

[mainah]

If not for the sake of being safe, do it as a good example for your student. Don't teach them to be "manly". Teach them to be smart girls and they can later develop into dumb men...

Oh... I know its comming!!! But I couldn't keep my mouth shut!

D'OH!!! You found me!

 

[regionalcap]

Be smart. Go ahead and declare the emergency. I had to shut one down recently because of low oil pressure and yes i declared an emergency.

 

[xjcaptain]

Used to teach in the Duchess years ago, and had a similiar recurring problem. However, we could usually get it out of feather if we increased the airspeed enough while cranking with the starter. If at a suitable altitude, (which you should be if you have it entirely shut down) push the nose over and get up to about 140, then crank with the starter and it should come out of FX and windmill fast enough where starting shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Rick1128]

While there is no requirement anywhere in the PTS or regs that requires a full shut down of an engine during training, personally, I believe it is good training for the student. But it must be under controlled conditions. Lots of altitude, light aircraft and CLOSE to the airport. There are too many things that can go wrong. But I have also worked with pilots who have never seen a prop feathered before. The look on their faces is beyond priceless.

To answer the other part of the question, I would declare as you couldn't get the engine restarted. Therefore you had a 'real' engine failure.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

declare the emergency man!!!

flying around in some POS light training twin with one shut down and you are afraid to declare an emergency? Thats the start of an accident report just after the otwer has you go around at the last minute......you know what I mean?

Declare the emergency, ATC loves that $hit. Then the entire place is YOURS. No go-arounds, modified patterns, pressure...etc..

I declared once, at a field with a FSDO...they did call the FBO and ask what happened (shut down one on a cheyenne after departure, came back, landed.) gave them the quick scoop, they said thanks - good choice. Thats it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Declaring

While there is no requirement anywhere in the PTS or regs that requires a full shut down of an engine during training, personally, I believe it is good training for the student. But it must be under controlled conditions. Lots of altitude, light aircraft and CLOSE to the airport. There are too many things that can go wrong. But I have also worked with pilots who have never seen a prop feathered before. The look on their faces is beyond priceless.

To answer the other part of the question, I would declare as you couldn't get the engine restarted. Therefore you had a 'real' engine failure.

I agree with both points Rick raised, especially about shutting one down in flight. It is excellent training and an excellent confidence-builder for your multi student. It proves that one can go and you can still fly. To that end, I would indeed declare. It is an emergency anytime you lose an engine in a light twin.

 

[C40_Pilot]

I got my ATP in the duchess. Not impossible to fly around single engine. But why wouldn't you wan't priority? I've flown C-17's and now the BBJ and whenever I lose HALF of my thrust, I declare an emergency. When could you think of any better time to declare an emergency than that?!

 

[CUEBOAT]

im glad the rest of the world agrees with me. I did infact declare an emergency. I never did second guess my decision either. Got some heat from the boss man for doing it. He thought I just didnt do a good enough job of restarting it. Come to find out, maintenance found a leaky accumulator.

 

[xjcaptain]

I'm glad to hear they found a mechanical problem, but not to be the turd in the punchbowl, it IS possible to restart a piston engine that does not have a working accumulator. Many twins don't have one at all. Perhaps a little more time trying to restart would have avoided the problem in the first place.

 

[CUEBOAT]

xjcaptain I fully understand how to air restart without the accumulator. I was trying to use the starter for about 10 mins. We did actually get it running but it wouldn't exceed 400rpm. it was vibrating so badly I thought it was gonna sheer off one of the engne mounts. That would have added extra fun to the flight. Apparently when all the oil was forced into the accumulator instead of it staying in it leaked out. No oil pressure to unfeather.

 

[FSB99]

back when i was flight instructing, if i was in this situation, i may have been hesitant to declare an emergency, too, cause, i was always under the impression, that's a bad thing to do, that's inviting the feds into my logbooks, the plane's logbooks, the school's books, admitting defeat, etc. however, now, with some perspective on flying in general and the whole industry, hellyeah, declare the emergency, for all the reasons stated above, by others and yourself. good call!

also, don't forget, atc can (and will) declare an emergency FOR you... so, let's say you are landing at a controlled field, and you're pudding on in with one feathered, and try to dance around making the big E statement... if they look out with binoculars and see one shut down, or simply ask you and you say yes.. well, chances are they just might declare the emergency for you. and yes, you, the pilot, still has to fill out the paperwork!

but that aside, good job taking the situation in stride and handling it like a pro.

 

[Publishers]

point

I do not think it necessary to declare an emergency. While at a controlled field, I would let ATC know of the situation as I do not want to do a go around, but to call out the equipment is a bit much in a controlled situation.

The example given where the guy killed his family attempting a go around is not valid. Would it have made one difference in the outcome. Not unless someone could have leaped up into the aircraft and flown the missed approach for the individual.

There are different thoughts on shutting the engine all the way down. Mine is that it is OK taking into consideration other factors like weather, traffic, altitude, etc.

There is something to be said for the experience of getting it going again for real.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: point

I do not think it necessary to declare an emergency.

I would agree if and ONLY if you don't have anybody to declare one to (i.e. Class G airspace, non-tower airport, etc.). Otherwise...

A 50% power loss, no matter how it arose, is an emergency. Declare it. What could you possibly have to lose?

 

[CUEBOAT]

you, the pilot, still has to fill out the paperwork!
[/B]

Paper work? what paperwork? The tower nor did the Feds even call the school. I called the tower and left a message and they never even called me back. Another instructor that I work with had a bird strike a few months ago , declared an emergency and landed. Never did any paperwork either. So to all you pilots fearing a stack of forms waist high, forget it. Its not that bad

 

[Pipeliner606]

Publishers:

I never said the situations were the same. The point I was trying to make is, anyone who thinks it is a sign of weekness, or a "sissy" move to declare an emergency, is an idiot. True, that pilot's declaring an emergency might not have made a difference, then a gain, maybe it could have. It could have made him take a closer look at his situation, and take things a bit more seriously, instead of pudding on along like there was no problem. I dont care what anyone says, regardless of how it happens, if you lose half your total thrust, you are in an emergency situation. Swallow your foolish pride and declare, just in case. Can you honestly say that with all 100% certainty that your remaining engine will stay running? Training or not, if you cant restart that engine you just shut down, it IS now a real engine failure. As far as not declaring an emergency because it is a "controlled situation" as you put it, control is an illusion. You cannot control ALL the variables. Why not get a few more of those variables in your favor, just in case?

 

[efiscompmon]

I have declared due to equipment or pax problem 7 times now. With the exception of (airline) required paperwork, I have never had to send paper to the FAA. I have never been visited by an ASI. Never asked to speak with the Chief Pilot. Nothing.

Don't believe that cr@p about every fed being out to get you--declare, get help, move on. It's only a problem if YOU did something that caused the emergency to come into being.

Besides, gotta be alive to get violated. Given that choice....

 

[Maria]

Beg to Differ

Declare the emergency, if they ask if you want the equipment, say "YES!"

The dumbest feeling in the world is when on short final, one feathered, you said "no" to the equipment, and now the gear won't come down, then only the mains are down and locked.

What was a controlled situation rapidly became uncontrolled, and my only thought was of the rescue crews still playing cards in their station. Then it was touchdown and touchdown, and two nosewheel doors ground off.

ATC rolled the trucks anyway when they saw the missing nosewheel, but I would really rather have had AFRCC waiting nearby than sitting a mile away. There are so many "what ifs" including what if it was a main that didn't extend and we'd cartwheeled? What if...

Luckily God protects us fools and all we replaced were the doors, linkages, and the oil line that failed and caused our engine shutdown. We'd caught the rise in oil temps before the engine was damaged, saving about $35K and the paperwork that goes with an accident, instead, we only did paperwork for an incident.