How many details should an Airline SOP have?

[negatory]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]Most airlines write their own SOPs, FCOMs, AOMs, Operations Manual or whatever they call them. Many pilot’s are criticizing the industry trend of writing less in-depth pilot manuals that are more “need-to-know” than the older manuals used to be. Most airlines have a lot of additional procedures, details, techniques and often a higher degree of “micro-management” than the manufatcturer's manuals. Could some of you share your view on:
1) How many details should manuals include?
2) Can they have too many details?
3) Have your airline any overall philosophies about how many “extra” details to include?[/font]

 

[enigma]

Try and be a little more specific if possible. Are you asking about flight procedures?, emergency procedures?, GOM stuff? ???

enigma

 

[a320drivr]

I can tell ya we have way to many in our convoluded manuals.

 

[Mach 80]

If nothing else, I have noticed an overall decrease in the
limitations section. Some of the former memory item limitations were absurd and there's no need to memorize gear and flap speed limits when they're
placarded and you normally use speeds much lower than the
mfgr. limits. And no need for all the EGT limits to be memorized when they're color coded on the intrumentation.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

An SOP is an excellent guide on how to operate an airplane for someone who doesn't know how. Once you do know it is still a good reference.

 

[fracflyer]

An SOP is an excellent guide on how to operate an airplane for someone who doesn't know how. Once you do know it is still a good reference.

It's really so people operate it the same way, right? Suppose there's a million ways to skin the cat, but when you might fly with a different person every day, there's tremendos safety value in knowing what the other guy is going to do.

 

[negatory]

Try and be a little more specific if possible. Are you asking about flight procedures?, emergency procedures?, GOM stuff? ???

enigma

I am interested in any philosophies for both normal and emergencies of how many details to include in SOPs. For example should a SOP author write specifically how to set the autopilot bank angle selector – for example to max 25 degrees or should it just say “set as required”? I believe that an airline that defines a policy for how much “micromanagement” the want to have will have more consistent procedures. They will be less based on an individual subject matter expert or detail seeker's personal view and favorite topics. I will try to expand a bit, actually let me quote some text from NASA scientist Degani:



“The objective is to provide guidance to the operators—in this case pilots—to ensure a safe, logical, and efficient flight-operations. However, all too often these procedures can become a hodge-podge, with little internal consistency and lack of a clear operational logic…..

…The cornerstone of our approach to the design of cockpit procedures is philosophy……

….Although most airline managers, when asked, cannot clearly state their philosophy, such philosophies of operation do indeed exist within airlines…..”

(Full report)

 

[100LL... Again!]

The level of micromanagement needed is directly related to the cockpit culture of the airline.

The more cowboys you have, and the more screwups that get self-disclosed, the more details go into the SOP. The pilots group's average level of experience is a factor as well.

It's like the regs that are 'written in blood' - enough pilots forget to do this or that and it ends up as a checklist item.

It also depends a lot on how dorky and/or anal retentive the training department, aircraft type manager, or POI is. Some of them LOVE to spell out absolutely everything.

The short answer is that it is mostly 'cultural' differences that explain the large variance from carrier to carrier.

 

[bitememesa]

Dude that's pretty weak saying they should take flap speeds out of the limitations section because they're placarded in front of you. I hope you know your flap speeds, otherwise I'm getting an FAA approved replacement that says, "you're gay"

 

[PurpleTail]

I hope you know your flap speeds, otherwise I'm getting an FAA approved replacement that says, "you're gay"

I don't know any of the flap speeds or engine temp limits on the MD11...its all color coded for me anyway. I have too many other things to worry about, like how to my captains coffee.

And as far as the SOP's are concerned...it is the very reason why FedEx requires a four year degree, otherwise you wouldn't be able to figure out how to interpret the darn thing

 

[mar]

Information is power.

Personally I like detail but details are only as good as they are current. Outdated detail is worthless. So if the company isn't committed to the updating process who cares what format the manuals take?

Another point to consider is that the more "guidance" a manual provides the pilot the more liability protection the company has in the case of a lawsuit.

For example, (I can't remember the exact phrasing) but my company has a little paragraph that says something to the effect of, "Not every manual can cover every situation so in those situations not covered by this manual a pilot must use his best judgement and common sense to affect the best result."

And now the monkey is off the company's back and on the pilot's back...but what's new?

I think if the manual is going to be an instrument for both management and the pilots then more detail is better but I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a former checkairman who once helped put together a revised FOM.

 

[negatory]

Degani also wrote that ”an exhaustive set of procedures does not absolutely ensure flawless system behavior: deviations from SOP have occurred even in highly procedurized organizations”


An SOP is like the speed limit for driving a car. If it is too strict people won’t respect it. I am a firm believer in “train as you fly”. The training and SOP should be similar to what is realistic to expect one the line alone. Too strict procedures leads to routine SOP deviations and a double standard – that is one way to fly and another to train/check. Too strict procedures can make crew follow SOP like angels on checks/in the sim and have a second standard when alone on the line. This is often called "angel performance" - and is a problem at many airlines. The question I have is what is too much details? I know there is no clear answer but you guys have given some good inputs and hopefully more will follow..

 

[Tripower455]

The level of micromanagement needed is directly related to the cockpit culture of the airline.

The more cowboys you have, and the more screwups that get self-disclosed, the more details go into the SOP. The pilots group's average level of experience is a factor as well.

It's like the regs that are 'written in blood' - enough pilots forget to do this or that and it ends up as a checklist item.

It also depends a lot on how dorky and/or anal retentive the training department, aircraft type manager, or POI is. Some of them LOVE to spell out absolutely everything.

The short answer is that it is mostly 'cultural' differences that explain the large variance from carrier to carrier.

Perfect explanation......... I guess it explains why our FOM is so overly detailed.......

We hire a lot of inexperience pilots here, that need e-v-e-r-y word and detail spelled out, ad nauseum.......

It really makes it a PIA to find the important stuff in the FOM.........

 

[Mach 80]

Dude that's pretty weak saying they should take flap speeds out of the limitations section because they're placarded in front of you. I hope you know your flap speeds, otherwise I'm getting an FAA approved replacement that says, "you're gay"

bitememesa,

Why don't you just holler to everyone "I am inexperienced and haven't flown too many airplanes at too may airlines and only have a limited viewpoint of aviation due to my pathetic experience level".

It isn't "should" take the flap speeds out of the limitations section -- they ARE out of the limitations section at my airline. This is because the speeds are color coded in graduated segments right on the airspeed indicator (MASI) and change with ongoing configuration changes plus there are placards, so why bother wasting page space in the manual and brain cells simply to recite to someone. In addition if any speeds are exceeded for the flap configuration, the info is automatically downloaded via ACARS and you'll hear about it. And guess what -- there are probably many comparable limits not listed in our limitations section that ARE listed in yours because of a difference in flight ops philosophy and other reasons that my forward thinking flight ops department logically considers.

Good luck in your advancing learning curve and wierd obsession with the gay world.

 

[Mach 80]

Hey bitememesa,

From talking to a buddy of mine, just found another major airline which doesn't have the flap speeds in their FOM for the same reason as above. He said, as my airline is doing, more and more is being removed from their limitations section as the planes become more automatic and have newer features that display the limits in the cockpit to the pilots as and when needed.

The issue isn't that the information isn't needed at times, it's that it becomes available if and when needed in the cockpit without having to memorize it or be printed in the FOM.