How long to hold Delta 777 right seat after hire?

[crxpilot]

Just curious if any Delta guys can tell me the average time one can get in the right seat of a 777? How is the reserve coverage for that?

Thanks!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

777 right seat actually goes senior to MD-88 Captain.... so around 10 years. Ditto with the 767-400.

 

[On Your Six]

Delta will be getting more 777s going forward according to Whitehurst - especially with the focus on more lucrative routes. So, it may become easier to hold it in a few years.

Sounds like CAL pilots can hold it relatively soon - maybe during their first year or two. Why does it go so junior at CAL? Clearly the junior guys are relief pilots... Still, you would only have to do 2-3 trips per month to NRT or India, right? Not too bad.

 

[dudemize]

Sounds like CAL pilots can hold it relatively soon - maybe during their first year or two. Why does it go so junior at CAL? Clearly they are relief pilots...

It's due to the long time on reserve. Most don't want to commute to Sewark to sit reserve for the next 2 years. It's a good deal for the non commuters, or so I hear.

 

[On Your Six]

It's due to the long time on reserve. Most don't want to commute to Sewark to sit reserve for the next 2 years. It's a good deal for the non commuters, or so I hear.

Makes sense. For me it would be tough to go that long without many landings...

 

[Patriot328]

It's due to the long time on reserve. Most don't want to commute to Sewark to sit reserve for the next 2 years. It's a good deal for the non commuters, or so I hear.

I don't have the info to post to back it up, but I've been told probationary pilots are holding lines on reserve on the 777. I'm sure it's a fluke and probably related that the junior lines are all short-haul flying (LGW, CDG, BRU) and sitting reserve at home with a 76hr guar on rsv is better than getting these junior flying trips.

 

[pianoman]

Just wanted to pass some info along:

CAL was hiring for a while into the 777 but has stopped again due to enough people bidding it. Part of the reason might be because the pay for DH wasn't at 100% for a couple of years but has snapped back up now.

Another reason is that EWR is a commuter base and most guys don't want to sit short-call reserve and not fly. Junior guys get the reserve lines, not hard ones. Typically I fly around 1-2 trips per month and yup they're usually Europe because they're not worth as much so guys trade them away. Occasionally someone calls in sick the night before or the day of and you have to hustle but usually there's plenty of notice.

It is a great plane and enjoyable trips but never landing does get a little old.

 

[800Dog]

777 right seat actually goes senior to MD-88 Captain.... so around 10 years. Ditto with the 767-400.

We have '99 hires on the 767-400 in ATL and LAX.

 

[Spooky 2]

Delta will be getting more 777s going forward according to Whitehurst - especially with the focus on more lucrative routes. So, it may become easier to hold it in a few years.

Sounds like CAL pilots can hold it relatively soon - maybe during their first year or two. Why does it go so junior at CAL? Clearly the junior guys are relief pilots... Still, you would only have to do 2-3 trips per month to NRT or India, right? Not too bad.

A steady diet of NRT or anywhere in India would old very quickly.

 

[pianoman]

Actually most of those long haul trips are pretty senior. Us bottom-feeders usually end up going to BRU, FRA, CDG and LGW. Although eating the food in DEL is a great way to lose a few extra pounds.

 

[FlyingSig]

We have '99 hires on the 767-400 in ATL and LAX.

Yeah, but 7 from the bottom is a '97 hire.

 

[PuffDriver]

With rumors abound around here, any answer given is purely speculative. I would doubt that we would hire directly into the right seat of the 777. However, we are getting a steady diet of 777s over the next two years, and the rumor is that we will be getting most of them next year if the company can do anything about it. Theoretically, we could double our 777 fleet next year. That will lead to it going junior, especially with 13 757ERs coming and a few 737-800s. If I had to venture a guess today, I would say that you could hold it within a year to a year and a half.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They seem to think over at the school house that there will be new hires in it in the next year. I guess that they are looking at the fact that no one is bidding the 767 or 7ER.

 

[800Dog]

Yeah, but 7 from the bottom is a '97 hire.

My point was that it takes less than 8 years to hold 767-400, not 10.

 

[venr122]

Me thinks if we get any international perks back in the next contract those airplanes will go more senior. The fact the 777 went soo junior is a direct result of a poor contract and many many lucrative loopholes being closed up. IMO

 

[Heavy Set]

Word from my friends there say Delta could get 15 more 777s by 2010, and all of them could be the LR version, for long range. That would mean more pilots needed. Right now I think they hit Mumbai, Tel Aviv, NRT, ICN (Seoul), Dubai, and they are applying for nonstop PVG (Shanghai) from ATL. If they get 15 more, there are bound to be plenty more spots available. Then add some 787s eventually, and the international fleet could be impressive.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Just wanted to pass some info along:

CAL was hiring for a while into the 777 but has stopped again due to enough people bidding it. Part of the reason might be because the pay for DH wasn't at 100% for a couple of years but has snapped back up now.

FYI and don't shoot the messenger. I was getting my 767-400 IOE and captain line check and a 777 Check Airman came over to talk to my check airmen. Said they put the stop on new hires to the 777 because the failure rate was very high. Too much to learn and many captains didn't feel comfortable leaving two newbies up front while in the bunk over Russian and China airspace.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The latest rumour was 125 787s for DAL.

cliff
YIP

 

[catIIIc]

FYI and don't shoot the messenger. I was getting my 767-400 IOE and captain line check and a 777 Check Airman came over to talk to my check airmen. Said they put the stop on new hires to the 777 because the failure rate was very high. Too much to learn and many captains didn't feel comfortable leaving two newbies up front while in the bunk over Russian and China airspace.

If no one bids the 777 on the next bid new hires will be getting the slot, you can't force anyone else into that seat. Failure rate? I still see alot of M numbers on the 777 in EWR. The company is going to put a butt in the seat no matter what, the company needs to improve our working conditions and Intl pay to keep the 777 and 756 a senior airplane until that happens you will see new hires in the 777. I don't see the difference between a new hire and a guy/gal who is hired and 6months on the 737 goes to the 777.

 

[pianoman]

If no one bids the 777 on the next bid new hires will be getting the slot, you can't force anyone else into that seat. Failure rate? I still see alot of M numbers on the 777 in EWR. The company is going to put a butt in the seat no matter what, the company needs to improve our working conditions and Intl pay to keep the 777 and 756 a senior airplane until that happens you will see new hires in the 777. I don't see the difference between a new hire and a guy/gal who is hired and 6months on the 737 goes to the 777.

Yeah I have to agree with you. I'm not offended by the suggestion and it's something I thought about before bidding it. There were around 10-12 of us total that were hired in. I think one person had to get a couple of sims redone but eventually passed, so I guess that's about average for any training new hires.

The plane is probably easier to fly than a 737, at least as far as complexity. Also, the "worried about leaving a couple of newbies up front" is a very valid concern going over ___istan, but it's one that you would have with anyone new to international flying, say, from a 737 pilot already at the company anyway.

So all in all I think it's worked out. However it is sad that the position doesn't have a waiting list out the door to get on.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Just by way of comparison, my airline has put almost all new hires this year into the 777 and the upgrade is a maximum of 3 years right now .

While RJ pilots or guys coming off a pure domestic operation take a little more effort to train, they certainly have a very high success rate.

It is actually good to see that major U.S. airlines are finally figuring out that big airplanes flying international routes is a good way to make money. The freight alone usually makes the route profitable.

Typhoonpilot

 

[CAL EWR B737]

As I said this is what was told to me by Check Airman Pete Bartelli. I am just repeating what he told me. When you fly with him you can ask him youselves. When he was talking about failure rates he wasn't talking about the sims, he was referring to IOE.

Now my opinion if we didn't have a POS contract sold and negotiated by a bunch of sc@UM Bags, crooks and thieves it wouldn't matter. Because if we had pay rates with appropriate spreads between widebodies and narrowbodies and a real scheduling section we wouldn't be debating this subject, as it would be years until any newbie could hold a 756 or a 777.

Now I am going to enough my first layover on the 756 and enjoy SJU. Because shortly I will go back to work for our union and prepare to strike this airline.

FYI Possible TA on the Protocall agreement this week. If so CONTRACT 08 NEGOTIATIONS START NEXT WEEK. GAMES ON AND DON"T BE A WHORE AND PICK UP PREMIUM OPEN TIME!

 

[zonker]

FYI and don't shoot the messenger. I was getting my 767-400 IOE and captain line check and a 777 Check Airman came over to talk to my check airmen. Said they put the stop on new hires to the 777 because the failure rate was very high. Too much to learn and many captains didn't feel comfortable leaving two newbies up front while in the bunk over Russian and China airspace.

I'm not shooting you but give me a break.

What's so damn tough about the 777...nothing. If there is a problem it's with the training department.

Since I sat through ETOPS class recently with a so called instructor flipping through slides and not teaching a damn thing...I know where the problem lies.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Again I didn't say any of the above it was told to myself and my check airman by the 777 check airman noted above. These are his opinions. He is one of our very few OLD CAL 78ish hire, he is old school and came to work at this airline when it was a real airline.

However I believe it has nothing to do with how easy or hard it is to physically maneuver the 777 or learn the rote international operations. I believe it all comes down to real experience within our system and within international operations in order to handle real live operations with a solid fundamental experience level.

Additionally I believe it has something to do with if these pilots vegitate on the IRO seat with very little experience within our system and to some day upgrade to a 737 CA with no real experience.

Again the fact that anyone can hold the 777 as a new hire and so many hold the 756 is a testiment to our POS contract and how far our industry has fallen.

If we negotiate a real contract this will all be academic.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

I don't see the difference between a new hire and a guy/gal who is hired and 6months on the 737 goes to the 777.

Big difference, if someone starts on the 737 for six months and then goes to the 777 he/she will have a basic fundamental experience level flying within our system. A lot of ups and downs and physical legs flown in high density lovely EWR and IAH. As opposed to someone who is completely foriegn to our system going to the 777 (training isn't the problem) who is going to only see the IRO seat for the most part and the sim every 90 days.

 

[skyward80]

With all this talk of newbies going to Delta's 777 and 75/76 fleet, does anybody know what the next class will look like? I thought the June 18 class was made up mostly of domestic slots on the 73 and 88.

Out of curiousity, what does IOE look like for international ops at Delta? I have flown "The Stans" before and two things greatly helped me prepare: 1) experienced instructor, and 2) mission planning prior to flight with that experienced instructor. Do airline guys flying international ops to these parts of the world do something similar to this as well?

Cheers!
Skyward80

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Newbies will be going to the 7ER in the mid July class or in the first august class.

As a new hire, you'll get at least a 3 day jumpseat trip in your aircraft type. As an ER FO, you'll get a domestic 75/76 trip in your seat and 2 "TOE" trips...which are an oceanic out and back on each trip.

Domestic you get 40 hours of IOE plus the jumpseat trip.

 

[PCL_128]

PeanuckleCRJ, did you get the ER or domestic? Finished training yet?

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

As an early 2000 hire, I am 450 numbers from NYC 88 Capt, and 1000 numbers from 777 F/O...

 

[ToThePain]

As I said this is what was told to me by Check Airman Pete Bartelli. I am just repeating what he told me. When you fly with him you can ask him youselves. When he was talking about failure rates he wasn't talking about the sims, he was referring to IOE.

Now my opinion if we didn't have a POS contract sold and negotiated by a bunch of sc@UM Bags, crooks and thieves it wouldn't matter. Because if we had pay rates with appropriate spreads between widebodies and narrowbodies and a real scheduling section we wouldn't be debating this subject, as it would be years until any newbie could hold a 756 or a 777.

Now I am going to enough my first layover on the 756 and enjoy SJU. Because shortly I will go back to work for our union and prepare to strike this airline.

FYI Possible TA on the Protocall agreement this week. If so CONTRACT 08 NEGOTIATIONS START NEXT WEEK. GAMES ON AND DON"T BE A WHORE AND PICK UP PREMIUM OPEN TIME!

Not to be contrary but the two IOE guys I flew with said the newhires did very well. The overall thought was that they tried harder and cared a little more since they were on probation were happy to have a job at a major. This was echoed by the IOE lead check airman when I talked to him. That aside I would also not feel comfortable with two new 777 FO's in the seat flying over any of the ..Stans, Russia or China whether they be new hires or just new to the plane.