How do you pick a CFI??

[bobbysamd]

Problem instructors v. problem students

You just described my exact experience! Except it was a C-152, and the Warrior was a few years old. Instead of saying "you'll get better overall instruction," I'd say there is absolutely no comparison. After I tried 8 different instructors at the 141 school I couldn't find any that knew what they were doing.

How did you know they didn't know what they were doing? What made you so qualified to judge them?

An instructor change after one instructor is (somewhat) understandable; personalities, teaching styles and willingness to receive instruction can clash. But eight instuctors? I assume that you would have kept the same one from start to finish at your school had that person been compatible with you. Having been there and done that, I must second the comments above. If you could not learn from eight separate instructors, then at least part of problem could have been you.

I worked at three major Part 141 schools; ERAU, FlightSafety and Mesa. Instructor changes were always entertained because if a student complains about the intructor the instructor-student relationship has been irretrievably broken. I considered myself always to be a conscientious, dedicated instructor, but if a student did not want to fly with me I no longer had any interest in him.

Then, you have students with whom no instructor wants to fly. Many of these individuals think they are owed. I had one in particular at MAPD. No instructor wanted to work with this fellow, so, because I was new to MAPD, he was assigned (dumped) to me. This young man was actually a decent student and pilot but acted very smug and thought the world revolved around him. He started off alright but tried to make demands on my time that I refused. He refused to schedule during my availability and then did not schedule at all. He fell behind in his course, which absolutely was against school rules, and tried to catch up at the end, at his convenience. He blew his stage check. He argued with me in flight about theory and technique. Finally, he passed his ride but because of his 'tude, he was denied "the interview" with Mesa. A better way to say it is he blew it. "The interview" is virtually guaranteed to anyone MAPD students who follows the program.

As I wrote above, flight training is an intense one-on-one relationship. 141 is an intense learning situation, and not unlike airline training. Most flight instructors will go out of their way to help a dedicated student, especially those who need help. Most flight instructors will not want to bother with whiners, slackers and those who feel they are owed.

 

[dmspilot00]

Are you sure you're qualified to say that eight seperate instructors had no idea what they were doing? Perhaps its you. I've had students like that before...its everyone's fault but their own.

Changing schools solved the problem. Yes, I am sure I am qualified. I did all of my private training (a year and a half and 50 hours) with the same instructor, a middle-aged person who flight instructed solely for fun. I enjoyed every minute of that instruction.

I changed to the Part 141 school because I was attracted to the reduced minimum times for the instrument rating and commercial certificate--a big mistake on my part. The reason I had 8 wasn't because I kept asking for a different instructor, but because I was never really assigned an instructor, and just flew with whoever happened to be available that day. Some of these instructors had good personalities, some bad, but all were really unknowledgable about the subjects they were supposed to be teaching. I didn't say they had "no idea" what they were doing... they did have an idea, but not a very good idea...

I can usually tell in one flight whether an instructor is good or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist and it doesn't take much qualification.

"Most flight instructors will not want to bother with whiners, slackers and those who feel they are owed."

Most of the eight instructors I mentioned themselves were whiners, slackers, etc. The problem was the instructors, not the students. Actually, the real problem was the school that hired these yahoos in the first place. Starting pay was $7 / hour ... any CFI willing to work for that can't possibly be worth much.

I am sorry that I was vague in my original post.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

keep it simple:

PICKING A CFI --

Walk in and get the newest guy there. Brand New CFI is a plus. He will try his a$$ of to teach you. He will be truly concerned with your progress.

After 4-500 hrs of CFI'ing eeryone is burned out and only wants the choice students (hot chiks).

Another thought, if one is not burned out after a year or so - he has severe mental problems and I wouldn't get in an airplane with him.

 

[bigD]

dmspilot - I've said this before and will say it again. You REALLY need to lighten up! You're wound waaay too tight - especially for someone your age!

 

[EatSleepFly]

Another thought, if one is not burned out after a year or so - he has severe mental problems and I wouldn't get in an airplane with him.

 

[dmspilot00]

dmspilot - I've said this before and will say it again. You REALLY need to lighten up! You're wound waaay too tight - especially for someone your age!

Post edited somewhat... I'm not that way in real life...honest! I guess I only post here when I'm in an argumentative mood. But bad CFIs really fire me up !

 

[bigD]

Post edited somewhat... I'm not that way in real life...honest! I guess I only post here when I'm in an argumentative mood. But bad CFIs really fire me up !

You know me - I'm always trying to lighten the mood! There's never any disrespect intended.

I will however say that a time building CFI isn't necessarily a *bad* CFI. You can be a CFI looking to build just enough time to move to the next step, but still have nothing but your students' best interests in mind in the meantime.

In fact, I know a young guy that is openly tired of being a CFI, and will readily admit that he's just trying to build whatever time necessary to move on. But when he's with students, he's pretty much the best CFI in the area, IMO. I guess I'm just saying to be careful using that as the only criterion.

 

[dmspilot00]

I will however say that a time building CFI isn't necessarily a *bad* CFI...I know a young guy that is openly tired of being a CFI, and will readily admit that he's just trying to build whatever time necessary to move on. But when he's with students, he's pretty much the best CFI in the area, IMO.

Sadly, this is more the exception than the norm. Not all time-building CFIs are "bad," of course, but usually if the one and only reason they are a CFI is to build time then the probability that that CFI will do a good job is pretty low. I think this is stating the obvious, however.

Maybe the question for a student to ask a prospective CFI is, "why should I hire you to teach me to fly over someone else?"

 

[bobbysamd]

Whiners - students and instructors alike

The reason I had 8 wasn't because I kept asking for a different instructor, but because I was never really assigned an instructor, and just flew with whoever happened to be available that day . . . .

Now, that's a horse of a different color. Your school was very much at fault for not assigning you to an instructor. That's crap and lousy customer service. Your previous post implied and insinuated very strongly that your instructors had a problem and not you. Having said that, I stand by my comments above. There are students who never can find an instructor who they can work with. Note the choice of words. By the same token:

Most flight instructors will not want to bother with whiners, slackers and those who feel they are owed.

I stand by those comments as well.

Most of the eight instructors I mentioned themselves were whiners, slackers, etc. The problem was the instructors, not the students. Actually, the real problem was the school that hired these yahoos in the first place. Starting pay was $7 / hour ... any CFI willing to work for that can't possibly be worth much.

That is a very narrow view and not indicative at all of instructor quality. Face it, some companies just don't pay much money. That's why they are called entry-level jobs. Just because an instructor must suffer bad pay doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is bad. That just happens to be what he/she is being paid at the moment.

One more example on employee quality versus pay, from another industry. You might hear about radio disc jockeys and announcers being paid enormous money. Those jobs are in the minority. The vast majority of radio jobs are at 250-watt stations in the sticks. But where does the high-priced talent get its start? Primarily at 250-watt stations, being paid $6.50 an hour, doing every job in the station until they build enough experience to warrant consideration at bigger stations in larger markets. So much for tying quality to pay.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Whiners - students and instructors alike

There are students who never can find an instructor who they can work with. ... Just because an instructor must suffer bad pay doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is bad.

If there is a group of instructors who all share a gross lack of knowledge and a student cannot work with them because of this, who is at fault?

Most instructors are paid poorly, but $7 is way way below the market wage of even a brand new instructor. If someone is willing to suffer that just to build flight time I would have to say they probably aren't worth their salt. I'm not saying that every instructor who works for X pay is bad, but it is just another clue.

I do not at all have a problem finding an instructor I can work with. On the contrary, I have found numerous. What's the difference? It is not because of a personality match or clash, nor is it because I work with some better than others.

Your previous post implied and insinuated very strongly that your instructors had a problem and not you

Your wording shows that you completely misunderstood my original post. No one had a problem, and there was no clash of personalities, or anything of the sort. The instructors did not have a problem, I did not have a problem. We got along fine. It is just that they were, plain and simple, poor instructors who could not teach or fly very well. This is being totally objective and only related to their knowledge and skills. My point was to show just how many bad instructors there are out there in the world, and how unfortunate it is.

I know the difference between a personality clash and a bad instructor. Looking back, I was probably a bit harsh in saying that all the 8 instructors at the 141 school were bad. They were mostly in the range from "decent" to "mediocre," but nothing more.

One other thing to consider is this--consistently you've been saying that it was just that I happened to merely not work well with the CFIs in question. Nothing could be further from the truth. The 8 instructors who I am saying were bad were excessively nice and complimentary, and most said "good job" every 2 minutes. They helped me excessively with things I should have been doing myself, and I did not learn. My first, and best, instructor only talked when necessary, only said "good job" when it was really warranted, and occasionally I actually became frustrated/angry with that instructor. But piloting ability also played a part, and the instructors at the 141 school didn't have much.

What influences my perspective of a CFI? How knowledgable they are, how good they are at teaching, and how good they are at flying. Nothing more.

I only went to that school for about 8 months before I went back to the first one, deciding that I'd rather have fun building 250 hours than be miserable building 190. I've also flown at other schools since then. If my first instructor wasn't such a good one, I probably wouldn't have ever realized how bad the 8 at the 141 school were.

 

[bobbysamd]

Part 141- from an instructor's perspective

After I tried 8 different instructors at the 141 school I couldn't find any that knew what they were doing.

Your wording shows that you completely misunderstood my original post.

I finally understood your point just fine after you posted the second time:

Your previous post implied and insinuated very strongly that your instructors had a problem and not you . . . .

Note the past tense.

My point was to show just how many bad instructors there are out there in the world, and how unfortunate it is.

Point made and taken. It is unfortunate that there are so many bad instructors out there in the world. Moreover, in your case, the school hosed you by passing you around from instructor to instructor without assigning you to only one. You should have demanded a refund. Flight schools hose instructors around plenty as well. That is also unfortunate but a fact of life; hosing customers around in the manner you were treated is dead wrong.

Here again, speaking generally and not about you, as well as bad instructors there are bad students. In particular, those who are excessively demanding, arrogant, petulant, and resist instruction. They complain to the Chief Flight Instructor or student counselor constantly about their instructors. Rarely does the instructor get to chip in his/her two cents, so blame is assigned solely to the instructor. Unlike American justice, where a defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty and has the right to present a defense.

The 8 instructors . . . helped me excessively with things I should have been doing myself . . .

I am taking at face value what you have written. Having said that, here is a perspective from the right seat.

Because of Part 141 TCO hour limitations and little opportunity for extra flights and training periods, instructors are under pressure to push students to learn. Once more, I take at face value what you have written about instructors helping you excessively with things you should have done yourself. But, under this circumstance, when it appears to the instructor that a student isn't grasping it fast enough, instructors tend to push them, which, perhaps, to some students, is construed as excessive help. Students will sometimes argue back that they should be allowed slack to make mistakes and learn from them; my point is that Part 141 provides few such opportunites. Here, again, 141 is similar to airline training, i.e., being pushed and being given few opportunities to make mistakes.

Once again, I'm not saying that this was you. But your comments provide an opportunity to address your experience from an (ex) 141 instructor's point of view.

 

[bobbysamd]

Instructor burnout

after 4-500 hrs of CFI'ing eeryone is burned out and only wants the choice students (hot chiks).

I started burning out a little after having given 3000 hours of dual - and it wasn't because of instructing for so many hours. 3000 hours was about the point where I had my fill of flight school BS and spineless, lying management. In other words, but for the crap that went on I had always enjoyed instructing and liked the programs in which I was teaching.

 

[mizzouguy]

If their only reason for being a CFI is building time run from this person. They are not and never will be a good CFI. Find someone who likes to teach and yes there are plenty of them around. And as a DPE we do know who the time builders are. It shows in their students. Its all about details. A time builder just teaches a student to meet the practical test standards.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Part 141- from an instructor's perspective

Here again, speaking generally and not about you, as well as bad instructors there are bad students. In particular, those who are excessively demanding, arrogant, petulant, and resist instruction.

I see what you're saying now. I do agree that there are bad students out there as well as bad instructors...

When I said "excessively helped," I meant helped as in took over certain tasks that the student should have been doing--"excessive" to the point where it hurt learning, instead of helping it.

This all goes back to what mizzouguy said--the probability that a time builder who is only instructing to build time is going to be a good instructor is very low.

 

[JimNtexas]

Lot's of good points in this thread, but I'd suggest one more. Is your instructor going to be available when you want to fly?

I've been stood up a number of times by instructors (both 141 and free lance) who got a ride in a twin or something and blew me off at the last minute.

Everyone has last minutes things that happen in their life, but it shouldn't happen often.

I'm working on some additonal training now, and what seems to be working well for me is to use two freelance CFIs. That way I have a backup if one isn't available.

I can do this because I own a share in an airplane, one of the many, many advantages of owning over renting.