How do you pick a CFI??

[dmspilot00]

dmspilot - I've said this before and will say it again. You REALLY need to lighten up! You're wound waaay too tight - especially for someone your age!

Post edited somewhat... I'm not that way in real life...honest! I guess I only post here when I'm in an argumentative mood. But bad CFIs really fire me up !

 

[bigD]

Post edited somewhat... I'm not that way in real life...honest! I guess I only post here when I'm in an argumentative mood. But bad CFIs really fire me up !

You know me - I'm always trying to lighten the mood! There's never any disrespect intended.

I will however say that a time building CFI isn't necessarily a *bad* CFI. You can be a CFI looking to build just enough time to move to the next step, but still have nothing but your students' best interests in mind in the meantime.

In fact, I know a young guy that is openly tired of being a CFI, and will readily admit that he's just trying to build whatever time necessary to move on. But when he's with students, he's pretty much the best CFI in the area, IMO. I guess I'm just saying to be careful using that as the only criterion.

 

[dmspilot00]

I will however say that a time building CFI isn't necessarily a *bad* CFI...I know a young guy that is openly tired of being a CFI, and will readily admit that he's just trying to build whatever time necessary to move on. But when he's with students, he's pretty much the best CFI in the area, IMO.

Sadly, this is more the exception than the norm. Not all time-building CFIs are "bad," of course, but usually if the one and only reason they are a CFI is to build time then the probability that that CFI will do a good job is pretty low. I think this is stating the obvious, however.

Maybe the question for a student to ask a prospective CFI is, "why should I hire you to teach me to fly over someone else?"

 

[bobbysamd]

Whiners - students and instructors alike

The reason I had 8 wasn't because I kept asking for a different instructor, but because I was never really assigned an instructor, and just flew with whoever happened to be available that day . . . .

Now, that's a horse of a different color. Your school was very much at fault for not assigning you to an instructor. That's crap and lousy customer service. Your previous post implied and insinuated very strongly that your instructors had a problem and not you. Having said that, I stand by my comments above. There are students who never can find an instructor who they can work with. Note the choice of words. By the same token:

Most flight instructors will not want to bother with whiners, slackers and those who feel they are owed.

I stand by those comments as well.

Most of the eight instructors I mentioned themselves were whiners, slackers, etc. The problem was the instructors, not the students. Actually, the real problem was the school that hired these yahoos in the first place. Starting pay was $7 / hour ... any CFI willing to work for that can't possibly be worth much.

That is a very narrow view and not indicative at all of instructor quality. Face it, some companies just don't pay much money. That's why they are called entry-level jobs. Just because an instructor must suffer bad pay doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is bad. That just happens to be what he/she is being paid at the moment.

One more example on employee quality versus pay, from another industry. You might hear about radio disc jockeys and announcers being paid enormous money. Those jobs are in the minority. The vast majority of radio jobs are at 250-watt stations in the sticks. But where does the high-priced talent get its start? Primarily at 250-watt stations, being paid $6.50 an hour, doing every job in the station until they build enough experience to warrant consideration at bigger stations in larger markets. So much for tying quality to pay.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Whiners - students and instructors alike

There are students who never can find an instructor who they can work with. ... Just because an instructor must suffer bad pay doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is bad.

If there is a group of instructors who all share a gross lack of knowledge and a student cannot work with them because of this, who is at fault?

Most instructors are paid poorly, but $7 is way way below the market wage of even a brand new instructor. If someone is willing to suffer that just to build flight time I would have to say they probably aren't worth their salt. I'm not saying that every instructor who works for X pay is bad, but it is just another clue.

I do not at all have a problem finding an instructor I can work with. On the contrary, I have found numerous. What's the difference? It is not because of a personality match or clash, nor is it because I work with some better than others.

Your previous post implied and insinuated very strongly that your instructors had a problem and not you

Your wording shows that you completely misunderstood my original post. No one had a problem, and there was no clash of personalities, or anything of the sort. The instructors did not have a problem, I did not have a problem. We got along fine. It is just that they were, plain and simple, poor instructors who could not teach or fly very well. This is being totally objective and only related to their knowledge and skills. My point was to show just how many bad instructors there are out there in the world, and how unfortunate it is.

I know the difference between a personality clash and a bad instructor. Looking back, I was probably a bit harsh in saying that all the 8 instructors at the 141 school were bad. They were mostly in the range from "decent" to "mediocre," but nothing more.

One other thing to consider is this--consistently you've been saying that it was just that I happened to merely not work well with the CFIs in question. Nothing could be further from the truth. The 8 instructors who I am saying were bad were excessively nice and complimentary, and most said "good job" every 2 minutes. They helped me excessively with things I should have been doing myself, and I did not learn. My first, and best, instructor only talked when necessary, only said "good job" when it was really warranted, and occasionally I actually became frustrated/angry with that instructor. But piloting ability also played a part, and the instructors at the 141 school didn't have much.

What influences my perspective of a CFI? How knowledgable they are, how good they are at teaching, and how good they are at flying. Nothing more.

I only went to that school for about 8 months before I went back to the first one, deciding that I'd rather have fun building 250 hours than be miserable building 190. I've also flown at other schools since then. If my first instructor wasn't such a good one, I probably wouldn't have ever realized how bad the 8 at the 141 school were.

 

[bobbysamd]

Part 141- from an instructor's perspective

After I tried 8 different instructors at the 141 school I couldn't find any that knew what they were doing.

Your wording shows that you completely misunderstood my original post.

I finally understood your point just fine after you posted the second time:

Your previous post implied and insinuated very strongly that your instructors had a problem and not you . . . .

Note the past tense.

My point was to show just how many bad instructors there are out there in the world, and how unfortunate it is.

Point made and taken. It is unfortunate that there are so many bad instructors out there in the world. Moreover, in your case, the school hosed you by passing you around from instructor to instructor without assigning you to only one. You should have demanded a refund. Flight schools hose instructors around plenty as well. That is also unfortunate but a fact of life; hosing customers around in the manner you were treated is dead wrong.

Here again, speaking generally and not about you, as well as bad instructors there are bad students. In particular, those who are excessively demanding, arrogant, petulant, and resist instruction. They complain to the Chief Flight Instructor or student counselor constantly about their instructors. Rarely does the instructor get to chip in his/her two cents, so blame is assigned solely to the instructor. Unlike American justice, where a defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty and has the right to present a defense.

The 8 instructors . . . helped me excessively with things I should have been doing myself . . .

I am taking at face value what you have written. Having said that, here is a perspective from the right seat.

Because of Part 141 TCO hour limitations and little opportunity for extra flights and training periods, instructors are under pressure to push students to learn. Once more, I take at face value what you have written about instructors helping you excessively with things you should have done yourself. But, under this circumstance, when it appears to the instructor that a student isn't grasping it fast enough, instructors tend to push them, which, perhaps, to some students, is construed as excessive help. Students will sometimes argue back that they should be allowed slack to make mistakes and learn from them; my point is that Part 141 provides few such opportunites. Here, again, 141 is similar to airline training, i.e., being pushed and being given few opportunities to make mistakes.

Once again, I'm not saying that this was you. But your comments provide an opportunity to address your experience from an (ex) 141 instructor's point of view.

 

[bobbysamd]

Instructor burnout

after 4-500 hrs of CFI'ing eeryone is burned out and only wants the choice students (hot chiks).

I started burning out a little after having given 3000 hours of dual - and it wasn't because of instructing for so many hours. 3000 hours was about the point where I had my fill of flight school BS and spineless, lying management. In other words, but for the crap that went on I had always enjoyed instructing and liked the programs in which I was teaching.

 

[mizzouguy]

If their only reason for being a CFI is building time run from this person. They are not and never will be a good CFI. Find someone who likes to teach and yes there are plenty of them around. And as a DPE we do know who the time builders are. It shows in their students. Its all about details. A time builder just teaches a student to meet the practical test standards.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Part 141- from an instructor's perspective

Here again, speaking generally and not about you, as well as bad instructors there are bad students. In particular, those who are excessively demanding, arrogant, petulant, and resist instruction.

I see what you're saying now. I do agree that there are bad students out there as well as bad instructors...

When I said "excessively helped," I meant helped as in took over certain tasks that the student should have been doing--"excessive" to the point where it hurt learning, instead of helping it.

This all goes back to what mizzouguy said--the probability that a time builder who is only instructing to build time is going to be a good instructor is very low.

 

[JimNtexas]

Lot's of good points in this thread, but I'd suggest one more. Is your instructor going to be available when you want to fly?

I've been stood up a number of times by instructors (both 141 and free lance) who got a ride in a twin or something and blew me off at the last minute.

Everyone has last minutes things that happen in their life, but it shouldn't happen often.

I'm working on some additonal training now, and what seems to be working well for me is to use two freelance CFIs. That way I have a backup if one isn't available.

I can do this because I own a share in an airplane, one of the many, many advantages of owning over renting.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Re: Re: Part 141- from an instructor's p

This all goes back to what mizzouguy said--the probability that a time builder who is only instructing to build time is going to be a good instructor is very low.

Thats a bunch of crap, or at the very least, too much of a generalization. I know plenty of instructors who don't plan on making a career out of it, that are absolutely excellent instructors.

It's got a lot to do with attitude, and frame of mind. If an instructor has a one track mind, that is, "moving up" as soon as humanly possible, then yes I agree, he/she will probably not be a terrific instructor. On the other hand, if that instructor is one that might say, "sure, I want to move on eventually, but in the meantime, this is my job, I'm going to enjoy it and take it seriously," they're probably going to be a successful CFI (provided they also have some of the other traits necessary to be a good CFI).

It seems to me that theres two types of pilots/instructors: those who want absolutely nothing other than "to be an airline pilot," and those who truely love to fly, want to enjoy the ride, and end up where they end up. I remember my first semester at school...there was a kid in my hall looking at a 777 cockpit poster. He said to me (and I'll never forget this), "man, I don't wanna fly all these little 'prop' planes...I just wanna be in that seat right there." I chuckled to myself and walked away. A year or two later, I found out that he never even made it through his private.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is, don't NOT fly with an instructor just because he/she is young and has other, ultimate career goals. Thats absolutely rediculous, and could very well be your loss. After conversation and maybe a flight or two, it shouldn't be hard to determine if your instructor has that one-track-mind thing going or not.

My $0.03 USD.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Re: Re: Part 141- from an instructor's p

Thats a bunch of crap, or at the very least, too much of a generalization

Notice the importance of the term "only" in those posts. If a person is only a CFI because they feel they have to in order to build time, that is different than a person who flies because he/she likes flying, is a CFI because they like instructing, but is also at the same time hoping to use his/her accumulated CFI time for his/her future career as a pilot. You can certainly find CFIs who are building time but are doing it for more than that reason alone. I was singling out people who had only one reason to instruct -- building time, and nothing more.

I couldn't agree with you more about the kid and his 777 poster--there are too many of those types who did end up making it through their private, and all the way through CFI... although the 777 kid example is more on the extreme side .

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Part 141- from an instructor's p

Notice the importance of the term "only" in those posts. If a person is only a CFI because they feel they have to in order to build time, that is different than a person who flies because he/she likes flying, is a CFI because they like instructing, but is also at the same time hoping to use his/her accumulated CFI time for his/her future career as a pilot.

I know quite a few CFIs, out of all of them, maybe one or two want to keep instructing part time after getting their next flying job.

This does not make the rest bad instructors, it just means they did not become pilots so they could teach people how to land a 172. Being a CFI is not about flying, it is about teaching. The qualities that make someone a good pilot have little to do with those that make a good teacher.

That being said, of the 20 or so CFIs at my school, about half of them I'd term "good", a few would be "great", and the rest would be forgetable. I suspect that something similar could be found at other schools as well.

 

[Cosmo1999]

what whirlwind said is pretty much true. Until they actually pay CFIs decent salaries there just wont be as much dedication. Most people still do good jobs because its their job. You want to network as much as you can in all your flying jobs and do the best job you can. At the same time however how do you expect someone to have full time dedication to a job that pays part time wages or even less? A pizza driver can make more just in tips alone on a really busy weekend than a CFI makes in a whole week.

 

[Ailerongirl]

Wow...

...I thought this would be a good thread!

Thanks for all the input guys! In regards to BigD's question, if I were to be looking in TX I'd have no problem having someone recommend a CFI for me, but I'll be needing one in TN.

Lots to think about for sure!

 

[8HourPilot]

G-200 is right on. The new guys will try excessively hard for you, not only because they still care, but they want their pass/fail record to be good.

After about 500 dual given, most get a little burned out. Not all, but most.

Shoot for the newbie.