How do you get started in Firefighting?

[champilot38]

My dream for a long time has been to fly a fire bomber. When I checked into it years back it was mainly ex military pilots. Im building my time this summer flying super cubs towing banners. How can a civilian get into the right seat of a bomber? Or a lead plane? Any information would be greatly apprieciated.

 

[BoilerPilot]

I currently am carded for Air Attack and Detection on two different aircraft. We don't do any tanker work, but check out companies like Neptune or Evergreen. Most likely you will have to get some heavy turbine time before you can get there. It would possibly work if you were carded through AMD (OAS) or USFS doing some type of other work (Air Attack, Detection, Lead, etc). It's a totally different type of flying. Lots of boredom followed by short periods of fast action. Most of the folks I know doing it came from another contractor flying another fire action, working for one of the agencies, or ex-military. If there is anything else I can help answer let me know.

 

[oops!]

I'm looking at this kind of business also... what do they consider to be heavy turbine time and are there any web sites with good info on minimum times and possibly a list of companies that do fly tankers.... thanks

 

[avbug]

Historically the tanker business has never been predominantly ex-military. The military does have limited fire mission assignments; two MAFFS C-130 units delivering retardant, and a number of helicopters are brought to service doing bucket work, but it's not dominated by military pilots, nor military aircraft.

Many of the aircraft in use are ex-military.

what do they consider to be heavy turbine time

"They" don't, nor is "heavy turbine time" relevant nor important to getting you hired into tankers.

are there any web sites with good info on minimum times and possibly a list of companies that do fly tankers

You might try the Associated AirTanker Pilots at www.airtanker.com.

Heavy tanker operations are limited now to Aero Union (P-3's), Neptune (P2V-5's and P2V-7's), and Minden (P2V's). The California Department of Forestry flies the S-2 tracker, converted to turbines, as the S-2T. Additionally, AeroFlite operates CL-215 tankers.

A number of single engine air tankers are in use, three times as many as heavy tankers. These are predominantly the Air Tractor AT-802, and the PZL M-18 Dromader. These are largely contracted on a call-when-needed (CWN) basis, to the Bureau of Land Management. They are used interagency as requested.

Job openings are few and far between. Heavy tanker openings don't occur often. Neptune recently had a few, but don't hold your breath. CDF has a very long and distinguished waiting list with experienced fire pilots on it. SEAT aircraft generally require considerable heavy tailwheel experience and ag experience, and the proposed changes the government may require will be either a thousand or fifteen hundred hours of ag (crop dusting) experience, among other things.

All you can do is keep knocking down doors and trying. It can't hurt. When openings were more plentiful, it took me eight years of banging down the doors go get my first tanker job, and that was with several thousand hours of flight time, maintenance experience, ag experience, several years of ground firefighting experience and several years of air attack and fire patrol experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Stonefly]

Get as much Multi-Engine PIC as you can. The minimums (last I checked) to get carded as a co-pilot are 800 and a ME ticket. Used to be, plenty of people got hired with that, or just a little more. Especially if they had an A&P ticket and would work in the shop in the off-season.

Things have changed, now the value of an A&P is much degraded as far as getting you into the right seat. Getting hired on with 800 and a multi ticket? Not any more. The co-pilots that I've seen hired lately have considerable multi PIC, and generally come from air attack, some from charter, night cargo, etc. The Forest Service minimums are low, but the insurance companies minimums are much higher.

The old advice was to get your A&P and your flight ratings, go knock on doors to you get hired on at least into the shop, prove yourself, and be at the right place at the right time. Now, I would recommend that you CFI at a school that does considerable multi-engine training until you get your 135 mins. Fly freight until an opening comes up with an air attack operator, which is fairly often. Once you are in air attack, get to know tanker people, but don't be too pushy. Be someone that they can get along with, someone that they can reasonably see spending an entire season with.

Good luck, fire aviation can be exciting and dull, enjoyable and frustrating. If you have a family, or want one, it is then made even more considerably difficult. It's a common attitude to start the season all excited, but by the end of the season swear you're never coming back, just to have the next season come back around and off you go all excited again!

Stonefly

 

[Stonefly]

champilot38,

I just re-read your post, and you asked about flying a leadplane as well. The path to the leadplane and airtankers are about the same. In fact, there are former tanker pilots that now fly leadplanes, and vice versa. The catch with a leadplane is that you need to get hired on by age 37 (certain exceptions apply). Leadplane pilots often don't get the recognition that tanker pilots do, but they work their tails off. A tanker spends a limited amount of time per mission in the fire environment, as it's utility is limited without reardant in the tank, but the leadplane driver can spend hours without a break flying in a very challenging environment.

Another rewarding, yet often overlooked career in fire aviation is flying smokejumpers. The Forest Service has some of their own pilots, and they also contract jumpships with pilots as does the BLM. After the jumpers are dropped, the jumpship goes into para-cargo mode dropping the jumpers gear on low-level para-cargo passes. Plus, working with the jumpers can be a lot of fun in and of itself.

One thing that I would also add to the experience that you will need in addition to the all important multi-pic is get as much low-level time (500 agl or less pic) as you can. Spraying is the best, but as you've heard, is another career that is difficult to get into. There are other ways of getting it, wildlife surveys, pipeline/powerline patrol, etc. I don't know what altitude you're towing banners at, but it could possibly count. Afterall, you want people to see the banner, right?

Stonefly

 

[avbug]

While tanker copilot minimums are still 800, I believe, a typical copilot new hire has 4,000 or more hours. Lower time copilots may never touch the controls, or touch them very little for the first few years...really depends on the pilot and on the captain. If the new hire does touch them, it's usually enroute or on the way back from the drop, with an occasional takeoff and perhaps a supervised landing.

I spoke to a copilot a few days ago, who hired on several years ago. H emay be many years before upgrading. He doesn't want to be gone as long as the tanker is gone, and is trying to split the season so he goes out part time, and another copilot goes out part time. He's not willing to put in the time, which means he needs to be prepared to get called out any time, to go anywhere, for any given period of time with no scheduled return and only one day off each week....to be taken where ever he winds up, while living out of the airplane and a different hotel each night.

While having an A&P isn't an absolute necessity any more, it's still strongly preferred, and one needs to know the airplane at least as well as a very experienced mechanic on the type, just to make basic operational decisions on a day to day basis.

Air attack will definitely get your foot in the door. Tanker copilot positions open up at the rate of perhaps two or three a year...lots of competition for very few jobs. Don't plan on getting type rated for several years, either.

Start chasing those tanker and fire jobs in November through about February, and keep after the companies the rest of the time with followups and signs that you're available and interested. Availability can be same day notice, so if it's what you really want, be prepared.

 

[Stonefly]

While having an A&P isn't an absolute necessity any more, it's still strongly preferred, and one needs to know the airplane at least as well as a very experienced mechanic on the type, just to make basic operational decisions on a day to day basis.

Avbug,

It's a lot better now that the pilots are not expected to fly all day, work on the tankers all night, just to get them ready for the next day. Having the contractual requirement of an assigned mechanic to each airtanker just makes sense.

However, the down-side is that the industry won't have tanker pilots with the knowledge "[of] the airplane at least as well as a very experienced mechanic on the type, just to make basic operational decisions on a day to day basis." The industry is rife with co-pilots that simply don't have a maintenance background, and lack a functional (not just operational) knowledge of their ship. To make it worse, as more "old school" captains retire, there are going to be more and more captains made that will not know the airplane in the way that you speak.

Couple cases in point, the co-pilot on the tanker that I was the crew chief on last season said to me when he was hired that he was told that the days of co-pilots coming from the shop were over. Also, the outfit that I worked for hired a bunch of new co-pilots this past off-season. Not one, to the best of my knowledge, had an A&P.

Sure, these guys and girls learn what a PRT is, they can identify a non-standard waveform on the analyzer, but when they land at a different base hundreds or thousands of miles from where they took off, and the mechanic is a day or two away's drive in his truck, they are next to clueless as to what is wrong with their ship, let alone getting started working on the problem.

Just my $.02,
Stonefly

 

[Stonefly]

Get as much Multi-Engine PIC as you can.

Allow me to expand upon my own post. Getting as much multi PIC as you can is important in getting to the right seat. If you ever want to make it to the left seat, then you must get as many hours multi PIC in a Large (over 12,500#) Aircraft that you can. There are co-pilots that are worthy of upgrading that lack the large a/c PIC that have stalled in their careers.

Stonefly

 

[avbug]

It's a lot better now that the pilots are not expected to fly all day, work on the tankers all night, just to get them ready for the next day. Having the contractual requirement of an assigned mechanic to each airtanker just makes sense.

I know. I fly airtankers. I'm one of the only tanker pilots out there who's got experience as a mechanic, inspector, heavy tanker pilot, SEAT pilot, air attack pilot, fire patrol pilot, and has ground experience doing structural, wildland, and medical.

I also still work on my own aircraft, and firmly believe there is no substitute for having one's hands dirty and on the airplane you're flying. It's kept me alive for many years.

 

[414Flyer]

Like others said, Air Attack is the best way to get into it. I would not however make any career decisions on trying to into USFS though as a lead plane pilot. USFS is pretty much clueless and have no direction on how they want their aviation side to be in the future, and they may just outsource it all.

10 years ago, it was not hard to get a USFS lead pilot job, they had more lead planes and it was not near as competitive as it is now, since so many major airlines were hiring. I know a guy who was hired in 97, he said he and 3 of his friends (all military) were hired with no interview. Now its more like 60+ resumes for an opening, and thats just if USFS doesnt just cancel the vacancies out of the blue.

As for the heavy airtankers, there are 1/3 the fleet there was in years past. I was hired as a copilot in 2004, then after a month in my dream job, USFS just cancelled all the contracts one afternoon. They knew for a while they were going to do it, but they didnt inform anyone else and let the companies put hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in the off season, getting their aircraft ready.

I would like to get back into fire at some point, but it is such a fickle industry, beholded to USFS and federal government, that I can not recommend that someone make career decisions based on trying to get into it for a career.

Now if you have a wife with a good paying job who doesnt mind you goofing off in the winter, and you are fine with just doing summer air attack, go for it.