How do I log UPT student time?

[Huggyu2]

The flight records I see of guys that go through the T-1 show around 270 hours of student time.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Huggy,

I have since found out that T-1 guys are getting other time listed when they ride in the jumpseat while their training partner is in the seat. I was thinking under the old model of T-37/38s where all our SP time is primary.

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Pic + Sic = Tt

When all is said and done, just make sure PIC and SIC add up to Total Time. Log everything else as other, i.e., 3rd pilot, sim time, bunk time. In an interview, the guy/gal looking at your log book will never question you if you just do one thing and make sure it is correct.....PIC + SIC = Total Time. It will save you a lot of time. Nothing else really matters to the interviewer, i.e., there I was over Macho Grande when... Did I mention make sure PIC and SIC add up to Total Time.

Cheers!

 

[Mud Eagle]

NTS....I don't get it. I understand your point, but why does "other" (XP time, for instance) not count as "total time"? That makes no sense. That's the ONLY column I can log XP time in is Total Time.

 

[Huggyu2]

That's the ONLY column I can log XP time in is Total Time.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think that's right. If I get in ort sortie in a Viper, an IP is on board, and I do all the flying, I log "XP" according to AF rules. Why? Because I'm not qual'd, nor in a formal course of training. But, I believe, by FAA rules, I can log Primary time: there is no "XP time" for the FAA. So log it like you'd log Cessna 172 time with a CFI. Or am I off base??

 

[Mud Eagle]

If I get in ort sortie in a Viper, an IP is on board, and I do all the flying, I log "XP" according to AF rules. Why? Because I'm not qual'd, nor in a formal course of training. But, I believe, by FAA rules, I can log Primary time: there is no "XP time" for the FAA. So log it like you'd log Cessna 172 time with a CFI. Or am I off base??

Long answer here...stick with me.

Remember that the Part 61 definition of PIC is the whole "sole manipulator of the controls" thing (the airlines think of it differently -- more on that in a second). If you have a rating (ASEL for the Viper, for example), and you're the sole manipulator, then log PIC regardless of if you have a Form 8 checkride in the aircraft.

If you do not have a Form 8 in the jet and you are flying with an IP, then the USAF logs it as UP (Upgrade-pilot) time, which is the same as FAA dual time. If you DO have a Form 8 checkride and there is an IP in the jet, then it is FP (first pilot) or MP (mission pilot) time, both of which are considered PIC by Part 61 rules.

XP time is logged when, as you say, you don't have a Form 8 checkride in the airplane or you are not in a formal upgrade course (but there is another time which I'll talk about here in a second). XP time may, or may not, meet the FAA Part 61 requirement for PIC. For example, when I was a T-38 IP I had the chance to go fly with the F-16s at Luke in their D model. I hand flew essentially the entire time during the sorties (meets Part 61 rules for PIC, since I have an ASEL), but went as XP time according to the AF because I don't have a Form 8 checkride in that jet.

XP time is ALSO logged when you are "sandbagging" -- the times when you're in the aircraft that you don't have a form 8 in and you don't touch the controls. This is the area that I have a question about. These XP hours are included in my USAF total time, but don't meet PIC or SIC requirement according to the USAF. This time is what's generating my question about the "TOTAL=PIC+SIC" statement above, because that's just not realistic for a fighter guy.

Now, temper all of this with the realization that the airlines ONLY want PIC time during which YOU signed for the aircraft. So, no UP time counts, nor does XP time. ONLY FP and MP time count when you're applying at the majors. Again, this is different than the FAA definition of PIC.

So, back to my original question...as a fighter guy, I have hours that are XP according to the AF, and there is NO SUCH THING AS SIC in the fighter world. The only column that I can log this XP time in is the "total" column.

Again...I can't have my total time equal my PIC + SIC because there are categories of flying which aren't either, but the AF logs as "total".

 

[NTS ALL 4]

extra pilot time?

NTS....I don't get it. I understand your point, but why does "other" (XP time, for instance) not count as "total time"? That makes no sense. That's the ONLY column I can log XP time in is Total Time.

I'm just telling you to keep it simple for the civilian folks. They don't care about the extra pilot time, sim time, 3rd pilot time, bunk time, galley time, sitting in the back cargo hold time. If you would like to put that in your total time, go for it. You just might have to explain it in the interview. If they ask "why didn't you add in your sim time, 3rd pilot time, dual time in UPT" you can justify it by saying, " I only count my PIC and SIC while I am rated in the aircraft". Remember KISS....Keep It Simple Stupid...for you and them. Less carpet dancing. I've been through enough interviews to know.