How did it go so wrong, so fast ?

[hawkerflyer]

Been reading about the situation at NJA, frustrations at Flex, uncertainty at Options and one of the few negative posts about CShares. Can anyone give an educated explanation as to the turning point in fractional flying ? As someone who's been doing charter for a while, the lifestyle always seemed to be the one bright spot on the fractional side. Not only is charter pay well below par but forget about quality of life. From what I've read, the expectations of pay and future aren't that out of whack. Is this what the future holds in this career ?
Good luck to all and safety first.

 

[bravodude]

you will always have pilots that are not happy. i have been at citation shares for over a year and there might be things that we are not happy about but it sure is better then any commuter or other fractional

 

[Live4flyng]

you will always have pilots that are not happy. i have been at citation shares for over a year and there might be things that we are not happy about but it sure is better then any commuter or other fractional

AH yesssss. Come back and tell us what you think in 3 years about your job that is so much better than any other fractional.

 

[bravodude]

as long as we dont have a union and we keep the same mgt. team i can tell you right now how it will be in 3 years. the same as it is today.

 

[Indigo]

Been reading about the situation at NJA, frustrations at Flex, uncertainty at Options and one of the few negative posts about CShares. Can anyone give an educated explanation as to the turning point in fractional flying ?

Been wondering about this myself. Seems like only a few years ago many people where I work aspired to the fractionals. No more.

But then I can remember not so long ago that United was THE place to work around here.

 

[PonchoMan]

I heard that to get ahead at citationshares you have to be a real a$$kisser. Is that how the merit system works there?

 

[bravodude]

maybee for you but not for the rest of us

 

[kingtut]

I came to fractional aviation expecting to much. I is a job and it is work. Working about one half the year is ok but starting on Sun and ending on Sat really blows and there is not end in site.

The NJA union is a joke. I would not bet on it but I suspect the TA will pass by a narrow margin and here we are off to the races.

 

[FracCapt]

i have been at citation shares for over a year and there might be things that we are not happy about but it sure is better then any commuter or other fractional

So, you have worked at all the commuters and other fractionals for at least a couple years each in order to be qualified to make that comment, right? If not, you're just blowing smoke out your a$$.

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

as long as we dont have a union and we keep the same mgt. team i can tell you right now how it will be in 3 years. the same as it is today.

Dude let go already I know it’s a merit system but Jeeeeeze you’re taking the skin off….

 

[bravodude]

i take it your an options guy, probably the same one that runs his mouth about how bad it is over there. i dont have to work at every regional to know they are all the same. as far as fractionals i run into enough pilots on the road to realize which ones are ok and which ones suck

 

[bravodude]

Dude let go already I know it’s a merit system but Jeeeeeze you’re taking the skin off….

that doesnt even deserve a response. if you think this has anything to do with the merit system you need to put down the pipe. Im done here. adios

 

[English]

i dont have to work at every regional to know they are all the same.

No disrespect intended, but have you worked at a regional before?

 

[bigD]

No disrespect intended, but have you worked at a regional before?

::eagerly raises hand::

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I bet I know the answer to this one! Call on me! Call on me!

 

[FracCapt]

i take it your an options guy, probably the same one that runs his mouth about how bad it is over there. i dont have to work at every regional to know they are all the same. as far as fractionals i run into enough pilots on the road to realize which ones are ok and which ones suck

Yes, I work for Options. I certainly don't "run my mouth about how bad it is over here". Everybody has some complaints about the company they work for - myself included...however, if I really thought it was that bad, I would not be working here. I have plenty of opportunities for other jobs.

Did you ever think that you just worked for a really bad regional? Based on the fact that you flew a Dash-8, I would guess you worked for a company with ridiculously long upgrades(a couple specific airlines come to mind), and you're probably still bitter about it.

I run into pilots from every fractional on the road all the time, too. There are plenty of happy and unhappy guys at CS, just like the other fracs. If you believe CS is the absolute best in every possible regard, you're really more of an idiot than it seems. Apparently it's the best for you - so stay there, and don't bother the rest of us with your obnoxious and elitist attitude.

Have a nice day.

 

[bravodude]

actually not bitter at all upgraded and was a capt for a while. spent over 4 years at a regional so i think i know what i am talking about.

 

[GLSoar]

I don't complain!

I love this job. I have flown junk and worked for shady outfits. My current frac company bends over backwards to make thier pilots happy. If you want something to complain about try physcial labor for 40 hours a week and then tell me how awful flying for a living is!

 

[xrated]

Prison can actually be more fun then some flying jobs out there.

 

[Schrode]

Wait a second, you mean in prision I get free room and board? Government backed healthcare program? But how many days a week do I have to work? None? No filing for taxes, no worries about an audit? Woe! But do they have a gym with free weights? Now how exactly is my job flying frax any better?

 

[wingnutt]

Now how exactly is my job flying frax any better?

...something about not having a girlfriend named "Bubba" convinces me

 

[Schrode]

I can not believe what I read when I see pilots ripping other pilots about pay and union issues. Look around guys, the whole industry is falling apart - but be real, it is not because the pilot is paid too much!

The cost of operating a multi-million dollar jet includes the money paid to a pilot - any pilot. But yet companies will let you believe that this is a major factor - two $100K/per year pilots . . . The annual cost per year is say $150K, for training, salaries and benifits per pilot, per aircraft. At NetJets we operate 5 crewmembers per aircraft so that comes to $750K per year per aircraft. An Ultra - the smallest in the fleet - charges about $10K a month to each owner per month for operational charges . . . $120K per year - up to 16 owners per aircraft comes to a cool $1,920,000 per aircraft for "management costs" only - there is a per hour cost as well. Now, granted every aircraft will not have 16 owners, but even with the minimum of 8 per aircraft the revenue is $960K.

Most here at NetJets are not saying EVERY Ultra pilot sould make a $100K or more, but when we are told our company can't afford it - we are insulted. A 5 year Captain should make a little more than $69K a year - especially when required to live in 5 of the most expensive places in the United States.

I am not crying because my pay is too low, I am not crying because I work too hard. My complaint is my Company promised to treat me as a professional aviatior, then compensate me like a private pilot. They say they have to, they don't have the money, yet they charge more than any other fractional, almost as much as a charter, but pay the least. Berkshire Hathaway says we are the most finacially secure aviation company in the world - yet they pay the pilots well below what they should.

Now go ahead, say "what did you expect, flying fractional . . ." My answer to this is: I expect to be paid a living wage. $42K in Los Angeles (where I live) is not a living wage. My kids qualify for reduced lunch at school. Pathetic. I work too hard to deserve this. Why don't I leave? I will. You can come to work here, fly these broken down planes for a while and go broke too.

 

[xrated]

? Now how exactly is my job flying frax any better?

Well in prison there is the painful anal rape experience.....oh, sorry, you work for Netjets. Geez, I guess prison is better!

 

[wingnutt]

to add to what schrode said...

for whatever reason i just recently saw a quote from netjets for a multi-point europe charter across the atlantic. the interesting part (besides the flight time fees) was the additional crew related expenses. they were lined out as

• crew expenses
• overnights
• extra crew overnights
• crew airlines
• and crew misc

the total for the trip was well over 100K (closer to 150K) with fuel variables, intl fees, and landings included. but the additional ~15,000 in crew related expenses is what caught my attention...and this is just one trip. hell, isnt that enough to cover f/o pay for 1/2 the year

 

[netjetwife]

That was then, this is now.

I
The NJA union is a joke. I would not bet on it but I suspect the TA will pass by a narrow margin and here we are off to the races.

WRONG! We have new leaders that are already working to fix the mess from the current MEC. Families are involved and actively working together to defeat the TA, which is commonly referred to as the POS TA by the REAL union---the pilots and their families. The groundswell can not be silenced--the backlash is very strong. Take my word for it, this POS TA IS DOA!

 

[netjetwife]

additional ~15,000 in crew related expenses is what caught my attention...and this is just one trip. hell, isnt that enough to cover f/o pay for 1/2 the year

It covers my husband's salary for 1/2 the year....actually he made only 14,000. Working 70 hrs a week, many times 14 hrs a day, all so that our son can also get the reduced price lunch reserved for the poor kids at school. The wives have now formed a group to fight against this exploitation. We are standing up for our families, working the phones, and supporting our professional-pilot, husbands 100% in their demand for fair wages that reflect their contribution to the success of NetJets.

 

[Publishers]

industry

There is an irony here in that without the growth of fractionals, pilot employment at all would have been horrendous for the last 5 years. Pilot pay and what the new deal will be is yet to be determined, not at Netjets but in the business of flying aircraft in general.

There has been too much of a gap between the low and high side of pilot jobs and the adjustment will be painful. Frankly, the high side has been out of proportion with other positions. Unfortunately the fact that much of the major side of the industry is union and it takes forever for these adjustments to work out.

 

[netjetwife]

Wide pay gaps are divisive.

I definitely agree, and experienced this firsthand when my husband was laid off from AA right after 9-11. He declined to go into the Eagle side of the airline not only because of the lower pay (he'd just recently completed training), but also because he was hearing that the Eagle pilots didn't want the regular AA guys there--too many hard feelings over the wide pay gap. We understood that. Flying is flying---are you any more careful when you have 100 passengers as opposed to 10? In his current position as Excel FO at NJets, an increase in px DOES make my husband's job harder. He has more baggage to load, more catering to deliver, and a larger mess to clean up after the flight! The wide pay disparity between FOs and Captains disturbs me as well, esp at NJets where the FO is typed as a Cpt, too. I, too, think that it would be good for all pilots across the board, if the gaps in pay were narrowed. Without a doubt, it would be much better for all the wives and children out there!

 

[Publishers]

wives and children

That would be great if this was about women and children but the last time I looked, it was not.

What is true is that many of the people bitching on these sites would not even have been employed flying this type equipment without the fractionals. What is true is that if these companies had not entered the business and tried to do their schedules in an organized structure like airlines, you would have a bunch of corporate pilots negotiating their own deals and finding the market pretty tough.

Frankly in corporate flying, the things you mention that are so hard are part of the every day routine. Doing your own flight plans, taking care of passenger baggage, catering, cleaning are all part of the deal outside of the airlines.

Lastly, while I understand that the discrepancy between the captain pay and F/O pay bothers you, there is a difference between corporate aviation and flying the public. Sure it would be great for the pilots but the fact is that what we are doing here is not competing with another fractional but with the customer doing his own thing. What can a customer get his own crew for???? That is the only question.

 

[netjetwife]

That would be great if this was about women and children but the last time I looked, it was not.


Frankly in corporate flying, the things you mention that are so hard are part of the every day routine. Doing your own flight plans, taking care of passenger baggage, catering, cleaning are all part of the deal outside of the airlines.

Lastly, while I understand that the discrepancy between the captain pay and F/O pay bothers you, there is a difference between corporate aviation and flying the public. Sure it would be great for the pilots but the fact is that what we are doing here is not competing with another fractional but with the customer doing his own thing. What can a customer get his own crew for???? That is the only question.

If the last time you looked you didn't see women and children that would mean that you are single? I'm sure that single pilots are in the minority. Flying may define a person's career, but it isn't their WHOLE life. A husband and/or father makes his employment decisions based on the needs of his family, not just his own desires. Good ones, anway.

I mentioned the other jobs, because of the lack of compensation--not because my husband minded doing them. Flight attendants, as I see it, should NEVER make more than a pilot---particularly if that pilot is performing the duties of a FA AND flying the plane. Pilot's wages to cover the flying PLUS something extra for extra work. AT THE VERY LEAST, NetJets should encourage the owners to tip NOT discourage it while the FO qualifies for gov't assistance.

Warren Buffet was convinced of the VALUE of NetJets before he bought the company. He was first a customer like many other wealthy people, and everyone acknowledges that he is a financial wizard. He told his shareholders that NetJets was going to be a very BIG business. He has invested heavily in it, grabbing more and more of the market--75% now. Time to put some of the BILLIONS into the pilots that are the most critical component of the entire venture.

 

[xrated]

A husband and/or father makes his employment decisions based on the needs of his family, not just his own desires. Good ones, anway

Ok, I was doing my best to stay out of this, but I can't hold out any more.

Your primary concern seems to be the pay at Netjets. Does it suck? YUP. Now, a husband/father (to answer a possible question, I am both) "makes his employment decisions based on the needs of his family". Ok, that sounds fair. When he made the Netjets decision, wasn't he told the starting pay was going to be 28K. Did he really make a good decision for the family? Sounds like you are saying NO.

Look, you can blame who you want to blame. Its a sh!tty deal all around. But your anger and frustration are going to keep you very warm in the coming winter months in CO. Based on what most on this board are saying....and I have no reason not to believe them, its probably going to get much uglier before it gets better.

I'm not sure, but by reading all your recent posts, It seems that you might still be impressed by the fact that "Uncle Warren" is at the helm and all is well. I'm telling you sister, he does not give a crap. You can bet when the margins get thinner, (whatever that might be), he'll pull the plug and who knows what happens next. He's no spring chicken and his useful years are few. He seems to like the model, but what does the rest of the board of directors think? Maybe time will tell.

If your husband is as smart as you say he is, and if he cares about his family as much as you say he does, he'd be doing all an injustice if he wasn't actively pursuing other positions. A retired Lt. COL has to have some connections....as long as he didn't piss off everyone he came in contact with.

One other thing. The whole "Gulf war DFC, AF acadamy, tallented F-16 pilot, BIG DOG airline guy" blah blah blah, really doesn't set well with a lot of people. I mean no disrespect, there is honor in serving and all but come on. Right now he is just an Excel F/O. He is no more entitled to better pay then somebody who came from flying a twin Cessna. You loose a little credability with the rants about how great you husband is.

Good Luck.