How can I log the time?

[brianjohn]

I searched through the board hoping to find my answer before I posted, but couldn't find much.
Anyway, hypothetical situation: I'll fly in the right seat of a CJ 525, which is certified for single pilot. What has to be in place in order for me to log the time? Obviously I know it would'nt be PIC, but any time and experience helps. What about if the PIC has an ATP? Could he give me dual instruction and I log it that way everytime until one day when I get typed in it?
What are the scenarios and possibilities?
Thanks for the help!

 

[BushwickBill]

I searched through the board hoping to find my answer before I posted, but couldn't find much.
Anyway, hypothetical situation: I'll fly in the right seat of a CJ 525, which is certified for single pilot. What has to be in place in order for me to log the time? Obviously I know it would'nt be PIC, but any time and experience helps. What about if the PIC has an ATP? Could he give me dual instruction and I log it that way everytime until one day when I get typed in it?
What are the scenarios and possibilities?
Thanks for the help!

If you have an sic signoff then its all good. It also depends if the CJ is being flown by a pilot who is single pilot rated. The one I sit right seat in isn't being flown by a someone who is single pilot rated. So it really isn't a problem for me. Do make sure you get the sic sign off I fairly sure it is 61.55b but do not have my logbook in front of me.

 

[Ralgha]

If you have to ask how you can work it so you can log the time, it's probably not a good idea to log it at all unless you want to do some serious explaining down the road.

If the pilot is single pilot rated, then you're not required to be there and can't log it. Even if the pilot is ATP rated, you're not in air transport service so he/she can't instruct you. Even if the pilot could instruct you, a wad of cross-country dual instruction in a CJ525 would scream to anyone looking at it that you were working the system.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

If you have an sic signoff then its all good. It also depends if the CJ is being flown by a pilot who is single pilot rated. The one I sit right seat in isn't being flown by a someone who is single pilot rated. So it really isn't a problem for me. Do make sure you get the sic sign off I fairly sure it is 61.55b but do not have my logbook in front of me.

Bushwick is correct. If the other person is single pilot certified I would not try to come up with some creative way of logging the time. You are only making more grief for yourself at future job interviews by doing so.

 

[BushwickBill]

Bushwick is correct. If the other person is single pilot certified I would not try to come up with some creative way of logging the time. You are only making more grief for yourself at future job interviews by doing so.

OMG!

I now have something to feel good about. Thanks FI...

 

[NoPax]

With the Ce-525, it may be operated with a single pilot if certain conditions are met, and the pilot has a Ce-525S type. However, the aircraft type certificate is for two pilots with an option, again under specific circumstances, for one pilot operation. (headset with a boom mike is one, operating autopilot another, and charts within reach and a few more)

If you have a Commercial Multi IR, then you can log SIC time. The single pilot type is not restrictive to only operating the aircraft with one pilot.

Just be sure that the type rated pilot teaches you the required systems that an SIC is to know about, and you may want to log the groundschool. Be very knowledgable of the systems in the aircraft when it comes time to move on - you don't want to appear to be a seat-warmer in the interview.

It is an excellent airplane to get a few hundred hours in, before moving onto something bigger, and is as complex as any other straight-wing citation out there.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

If you have a Commercial Multi IR, then you can log SIC time. The single pilot type is not restrictive to only operating the aircraft with one pilot.

No, it isn't, but how exactly can you consider yourself to be a "required crewmember" when the other pilot is fully qualified to fly the airplane without you?

The bottom line is this: If you don't show up for work one day can the other pilot legally get in the airplane and leave without you? If the answer is yes, the flight time will most likely raise some eyebrows in a job interview.

 

[NoPax]

No, it isn't, but how exactly can you consider yourself to be a "required crewmember" when the other pilot is fully qualified to fly the airplane without you?

If the required equipment is not available in the airplane, or the PIC assigns you a crew duty...you are a required crewmember.

How about a Flight Instructor flying with a Commercial Pilot applicant while the applicant practices maneuvers? The CFI will log PIC time too...its a quirk in the regs.

The type data certificate of the airplane...the manufacturer (Cessna) has certified the airplane for a minimum of one pilot under certain strict conditions, and can be operated with two crew. The CJ1 is not type certified like a King Air for example - where it is single-pilot type certified, and doesn't list a requirement a second pilot in it's type data certificate, under any circumstances. It is getting to the point where Cessna, FSI (it's prefered training provider) and insurance companies will prefer two pilots with this airplane.

Slightly off topic but - ever tried to get insurance for an owner-operated single-pilot operation these days?

 

[NoPax]

Source of above post -

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61392

 

[midlifeflyer]

If the required equipment is not available in the airplane, or the PIC assigns you a crew duty...you are a required crewmember.

The former, maybe. The latter, absolutely not.

"Required crewmember" for logging purposes means a crewmember that is required by regulation - by aircraft type certificate or by an operational regulation for the type of flight. (135 ifr with passengers for example).

The FAA says who is a required crewmember. Passengers who like to have an extra pilots, companies who want to give their employees a chance to fly, even insurance companies, do not create a required crewmember.

So, unless your PIC is the FAA Administrator and has been gives authority to create multiple-pilot requirements on the fly, the PIC in an aircraft saying, "Here. work the radios and pour me a cup of coffee" does not create a required crewmember.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Midlife is exactly right.

In addition, insurance requirements mean nothing as far as logging time. It doesn't matter if your insurance policy requires two pilots, if the airplane and the other pilot are both capable of legally doing the flight without you being there then you are not a "required crewmember". The other guy can assign you all of the "duties" that he wants, but like I said before, if he can LEGALLY depart without you by the FAA's standards then you are not a required crewmember in this case.

CFI's are able to log PIC time because there are specific regulations regarding CFI's logging of flight time that states that they can do so while giving dual instruction. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[NoPax]

If the required equipment is not available in the airplane, or the PIC assigns you a crew duty...you are a required crewmember.

OK guys...that didn't read as I wanted it to - it should read ....and the PIC assigns you a crew duty....

Everyone has assumed that the pilot is single-pilot typed so far.

Midlife is exactly right.

Not exactly right - I'll give him 50%...just how I faired...

If the equipement required for "minimum crew of one" in the Ce-525 is not available the type rated pilot (CE-525S) must have an SIC to fly it.

So, unless your PIC is the FAA Administrator and has been gives authority to create multiple-pilot requirements on the fly, the PIC in an aircraft saying, "Here. work the radios and pour me a cup of coffee" does not create a required crewmember.

OK...but he does have judgment and can use his discretion.

Again...there is nothing that says the CE-525S pilot must not fly with an SIC if the aircraft has the equipment. The S is an acknowledgement that the pilot demonstrated proficiency at operating the airplane/sim, without another crewmember. As I understand it, during the training for the S, the pilot will have been paired up with a sim partner, received CRM training, and flown as a crew, before demonstrating that he/she can do it on their own.

I don't know of anyone that first got the 525S type, then the 525 type afterward - as it is redundant as the crew training has already been accomplished.

 

[SSDD]

No Pax,

I think you are assuming too much in this particular case(maybe I am too). The way I read this situation, here's a guy who has a chance to bum some time in a Citation and wants to know if he can log it. If that's the case, I would enjoy the experience without logging it. However, if there's more to the story, I'd be willing to reconsider.

 

[brianjohn]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I am, however, getting a headache trying to figure it all out.
A couple points to ponder:
1. Hopefully I didn't give the impression I want to log illegal time. I would never even consider it for even a second. I have way too much of a guilty conscience AND I wouldn't want a potential future employer to second-guess my integrity. I just merely want to know if it can legally be logged.
2. This guy/company has been doing this for quite awhile (many years) with low time pilots. He told me he realizes he is used as a stepping stone and he has no problem at all with it. In fact, he comes across as wanting to benefit low timers as much as himself. So, one might think if it has been going on for years there probably is legitamcy to the co-pilots logging the time then eventually moving on to bigger and better. BUT the flip side is I COULD be the first person to want to delve into deeper and find out the hardcore truth.
His operation in and of itself is quite normal: He's a business man with his own jet needing to conduct business in other states. A very generous and giving person indeed.
I don't even have the job by any means yet either. And just plain old experience is great, but eventually not at the cost of not getting to build the time.
PLEASE don't take me for someone who would complain IF I find out I cannot log the time and turn down the offer. I feel I don't even deserve the experience considering my low time. However, there are also some strings attached such as me having to quit my current job.
Thanks again for all the advice and help.
Hopefully I helped clear up the situation a little bit more.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

During job interviews at my company the question is posed:

"If you didn't show up for work, could the airplane have legally left without you?"

If the answer is yes, the flight time cannot be considered.

Take it for what its worth.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not exactly right - I'll give him 50%...just how I faired...

Which half?

 

[BushwickBill]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I am, however, getting a headache trying to figure it all out.
A couple points to ponder:
1. Hopefully I didn't give the impression I want to log illegal time. I would never even consider it for even a second. I have way too much of a guilty conscience AND I wouldn't want a potential future employer to second-guess my integrity. I just merely want to know if it can legally be logged.
2. This guy/company has been doing this for quite awhile (many years) with low time pilots. He told me he realizes he is used as a stepping stone and he has no problem at all with it. In fact, he comes across as wanting to benefit low timers as much as himself. So, one might think if it has been going on for years there probably is legitamcy to the co-pilots logging the time then eventually moving on to bigger and better. BUT the flip side is I COULD be the first person to want to delve into deeper and find out the hardcore truth.
His operation in and of itself is quite normal: He's a business man with his own jet needing to conduct business in other states. A very generous and giving person indeed.
I don't even have the job by any means yet either. And just plain old experience is great, but eventually not at the cost of not getting to build the time.
PLEASE don't take me for someone who would complain IF I find out I cannot log the time and turn down the offer. I feel I don't even deserve the experience considering my low time. However, there are also some strings attached such as me having to quit my current job.
Thanks again for all the advice and help.
Hopefully I helped clear up the situation a little bit more.

Is he going to pay you? If so it should be at least a living wage for your area. Also be sure to get the 61.55b endorsement if not the 70% course at FSI. I quit a really lousy flight instruction job to fly part time SIC CE-525 for a small corporate flight department. Around Nov. the flying really dried up with the corporate deal. All of the sudden I wasn't making enough to pay my meger rent and car payment. I was still instructing on the side and thats what bailed me out of a bad situation. I dont miss the crappy flight school but I should have pushed harder for the type rating and better wage. Remember these guys will flush you down the toilet like a turd without so much as a goodbye if you dont have a contract. If you have a good job the jet deal should equal or better your current pay. Sure its turbine time but only SIC. It only goes so far.

 

[HawkerF/O]

If it ever comes up in an interview, just tell them te guy you were flying with did not have the single pilot endorsement. That will put an end to that part of the conversation. Like the others have said, know the systems, or at least a little something about each of them so they dont think you just sat there and warmed the seat.

 

[Tailwind]

Something to consider....

I agree that you don't want to log time that people will regard as you "cheating the system"....even if by the letter of the law you were correct.

My advice is don't log any of it as PIC or SIC....but you can log certain time under "Total Time".

If the PIC has a current MEI, then you could log it under duel received and Total Time.

If you are a Multi/Comm/Inst. rated pilot then you can log all the time you are the sole manipulator of the controls...even if the PIC is NOT an MEI---but, you should log it under "total time" only. NOT PIC or SIC.

When asked about it during an interview, be honest and explain the situation.
Even though your PIC or SIC time is not building, your Total Time is. You also get to talk about your experiance in the Citation and at the same time you don't look like a pilot trying to cheat the system.

Tailwind

 

[81Horse]

What has to be in place in order for me to log the time?

Back in the day, an operator had a contract with the Navy to operate some Chieftains and 402s on a Part 135 semi-scheduled basis. The contract required two pilots, but the FARs did not (autopilot).

Long story short, one of the copilots (i.e., "radio operators") logged all the time as "total time" somehow. When the pilot's logbook was presented to the feds for validation in advance of the ATP, the flag was thrown; all that time was disallowed.

You've still got your ATP in front of you, if I read your profile right. You should be really, really careful how you log your time. This could even be one of those extremely rare occasions when you want to actually ask a fed for an opinion.

Still -- it's great experience for you. Create your own column, and log it -- IMO it would be sketchy to include it in your total time, though. There might be some way to dodge around it on a technicality (dual received, whatever), but it won't look legit.