How a REAL union operates! FLOPS IBT take notes

[Voice Of Reason]

Rather than destroy the perception of their own pilots and spend time on engaging in one-up sandbox/ego/revenge fights with mgt. Flops IBT should take notes on THIS:
----------------------------------
UAL ALPA full page newspaper ad
Chicago Tribune, 01-01-08

The professional pilots of United Airlines would like to apologize to the traveling public for United Airlines’ deficiencies during this Holiday Season.

The pilots of United Airlines sympathize with our travelers’ plights earlier this week. Many of our pilots did not make it home to share the holidays with their loved ones either. United may blame this week’s flight cancellations on poor weather in the
Midwest, but, as most of our competitors demonstrated, the real culprit was United’s
lack of manpower – attempting to fly more with fewer employees – all at your expense.

United has been an all-weather airline for more than 80 years. We pioneered many of the safety innovations such as onboard weather radar, anti-skid
brakes, better weather forecasting and improved navigation instruments that allow operation in inclement weather all over the world. Until recently, we have been able to efficiently handle weather events in the Midwest and throughout the world without major disruptions.

Over the last few years, however, United has had to endure a management team that is bent on personal profit over customer service. They have pared employee staffing to the bare minimum, making them unable to respond to even well-anticipated weather
events.

Many of our pilots work to the FAA maximum limits every month, all year long. We have repeatedly warned United’s management that they do not have the crew resources to staff our airline adequately and have repeatedly asked them to discuss these shortcomings. So far they have declined to do so.

Instead, they diverted $750 million of cash payouts so that they may receive personal stock dividends of
$2,196,165. The top five United off icers received a combined salary between $65,983,879 and $100,850,809 in 2006.

We believe your holiday travel experiences would have been much better this week if they had used that money on the airline instead of on themselves.
United Airlines is our livelihood and our source of pride. We are here for the duration and we are here for you. We are disappointed in the way you, our valued customers, were treated by United’s management.
You deserve better from a world-class airline.

Signed,

The Pilots of United Airlines
United Chapter, Air Line Pilots Association
9550 W. Higgins Road, Suite 1000
Rosemont, Illinois 60018
847-292-1700
----------------------
Change the Trib to WSJ, United to Flops pilots, the union should be doing a similar letter to FLOPS OWNERS in the WSJ (HIG would see as well).
Nooooo....that might actually WORK...owners knowing all that is going on...how little the pilots now make and how that is affecting what type of pilots get hired...etc, etc...
You KNOW what you SHOULD be doing, and yet, YEARS after the vote...NOTHING this EASY and effective. FLOPS owners would be FARRRRR more moved by a PROPERLY worded letter than the general public, that is for sure. Emphasis on PROPERLY worded (as to how it affects THEM, and how they were sold a bill of goods as the "highest paid pilots, etc etc)
WAKE UP!:smash:

 

[WabiSabi]

Rather than destroy the perception of their own pilots and spend time on engaging in one-up sandbox/ego/revenge fights with mgt. Flops IBT should take notes on THIS:
----------------------------------
UAL ALPA full page newspaper ad
Chicago Tribune, 01-01-08

The professional pilots of United Airlines would like to apologize to the traveling public for United Airlines’ deficiencies during this Holiday Season.

The pilots of United Airlines sympathize with our travelers’ plights earlier this week. Many of our pilots did not make it home to share the holidays with their loved ones either. United may blame this week’s flight cancellations on poor weather in the
Midwest, but, as most of our competitors demonstrated, the real culprit was United’s
lack of manpower – attempting to fly more with fewer employees – all at your expense.

United has been an all-weather airline for more than 80 years. We pioneered many of the safety innovations such as onboard weather radar, anti-skid
brakes, better weather forecasting and improved navigation instruments that allow operation in inclement weather all over the world. Until recently, we have been able to efficiently handle weather events in the Midwest and throughout the world without major disruptions.

Over the last few years, however, United has had to endure a management team that is bent on personal profit over customer service. They have pared employee staffing to the bare minimum, making them unable to respond to even well-anticipated weather
events.

Many of our pilots work to the FAA maximum limits every month, all year long. We have repeatedly warned United’s management that they do not have the crew resources to staff our airline adequately and have repeatedly asked them to discuss these shortcomings. So far they have declined to do so.

Instead, they diverted $750 million of cash payouts so that they may receive personal stock dividends of
$2,196,165. The top five United off icers received a combined salary between $65,983,879 and $100,850,809 in 2006.

We believe your holiday travel experiences would have been much better this week if they had used that money on the airline instead of on themselves.
United Airlines is our livelihood and our source of pride. We are here for the duration and we are here for you. We are disappointed in the way you, our valued customers, were treated by United’s management.
You deserve better from a world-class airline.

Signed,

The Pilots of United Airlines
United Chapter, Air Line Pilots Association
9550 W. Higgins Road, Suite 1000
Rosemont, Illinois 60018
847-292-1700
----------------------
Change the Trib to WSJ, United to Flops pilots, the union should be doing a similar letter to FLOPS OWNERS in the WSJ (HIG would see as well).
Nooooo....that might actually WORK...owners knowing all that is going on...how little the pilots now make and how that is affecting what type of pilots get hired...etc, etc...
You KNOW what you SHOULD be doing, and yet, YEARS after the vote...NOTHING this EASY and effective. FLOPS owners would be FARRRRR more moved by a PROPERLY worded letter than the general public, that is for sure. Emphasis on PROPERLY worded (as to how it affects THEM, and how they were sold a bill of goods as the "highest paid pilots, etc etc)
WAKE UP!:smash:

What the fu????

You are making a connection that doesn't exist. My first thought was apples and oranges. However, even those aren't far enough apart. It is more like apples and the price of olives in Athens in 1381.

Man, you and your FLOPS management puppeteers are really desperate!

 

[Voice Of Reason]

:uzi:

What the fu????
You are making a connection that doesn't exist. My first thought was apples and oranges. However, even those aren't far enough apart. It is more like apples and the price of olives in Athens in 1381.
Man, you and your FLOPS management puppeteers are really desperate!

Typical ineffective and incompetent response.
Lose the junior high crew like this and do something EFFECTIVE (like the UAL ALPA example) with dues. Do you really think the owners are going to jump on the pilots side by seeing JUNIOR HIGH materials lying around, or by seeing a professionally written explanation of just what is actually going on?
It's a simple deal, but you'd rather just tell everyone to QUIT???? That's the PLAN???
Gahd help us ALL if it is.
I don't WANT to see the union fail (like so many "supporters" on here seem to want to)... so WTFing LACK of something like what UAL did?

It is MOST CERTAINLY *NOT* apples and oranges...in fact it would be MORE effective in this case.

The grim reaper bs is not only immature, little boy bs, but offputting to whoever sees it.

NOT the attention we WANT to be seen as PROFESSIONALS.

How about refraining from ignorant clutter like WabiSabi et al, and posting "better" IDEAS? Better yet DON'T post them if it needs to be a big "secret" for whatever reason...TELL the leaders!

They obviously NEED them!

 

[dime line]

And who is gonna pay for this ad? You Voice? R U paid in full?

Just so you know...I do like the idea and wish we could afford it.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I have an idea

And who is gonna pay for this ad? You Voice? R U paid in full?

Yes, in addition to a VERY lengthy list of others, so this should be chump change. If it's such a hardship, maybe some people need to start bunking up and otherwise cutting "admin" expenses. (How abt not paying the lawyers for the jobs they aren't doing to start?). I'm sure the new "riches" of your altruistic NJA brothers are pouring out in support...they want to "help" so much....

Challenge:
Send all of the paid in full MEMBERS (now in the dark) a financial report of our dues status and itemized expenses. Dues paid from the very first to now, then itemized accounts of how used.
That should not be a problem only going to those PAID IN FULL, right?
Show us WHY this WSJ ad (or even NYT, LA Times, etc) would be so out of reach?

 

[B19 Flyer]

:uzi:

Typical ineffective and incompetent response.
Lose the junior high crew like this and do something EFFECTIVE (like the UAL ALPA example) with dues. Do you really think the owners are going to jump on the pilots side by seeing JUNIOR HIGH materials lying around, or by seeing a professionally written explanation of just what is actually going on?
It's a simple deal, but you'd rather just tell everyone to QUIT???? That's the PLAN???
Gahd help us ALL if it is.
I don't WANT to see the union fail (like so many "supporters" on here seem to want to)... so WTFing LACK of something like what UAL did?

It is MOST CERTAINLY *NOT* apples and oranges...in fact it would be MORE effective in this case.

The grim reaper bs is not only immature, little boy bs, but offputting to whoever sees it.

NOT the attention we WANT to be seen as PROFESSIONALS.

How about refraining from ignorant clutter like WabiSabi et al, and posting "better" IDEAS? Better yet DON'T post them if it needs to be a big "secret" for whatever reason...TELL the leaders!

They obviously NEED them!

United is employee owned.

FLOPS is not.

I like what Pinnicle did better, it makes more sense. :laugh:

My biggest complaint about unions is how they drag their feet when things need to get done. This is a classic example.
__________________
Pinnacle Airlines Files Suit Against ALPA, Cites Bad-Faith Bargaining

MEMPHIS, TN--(Marketwire - January 8, 2008) - Pinnacle Airlines Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (NASDAQ: PNCL), has filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court against the Air Line Pilots Association International (ALPA) citing bad-faith bargaining in contract talks that began in 2005.
"We regret having to file this lawsuit, but the union left us with no choice. On more than one occasion, we agreed to terms that the union said would result in an agreement, and then they moved the goalposts and made additional demands," said Clive Seal, Vice President and General Manager of Pinnacle Airlines Inc. "We need them to come to the table and deal fairly in a genuine effort to get a fair contract for our Pilots and their families. I believe we would have an agreement already if our Pilots had been told the truth about our offer and been allowed by the union to vote on the company proposal as we requested."
Seal said one result of the union continuing to move the goalposts is not being able to compete for new regional jet service. "The failure of ALPA to reach an agreement with Pinnacle resulted in the loss of 17 of our 50-seat jets and a chance to fly 76-seat jets for Northwest Airlines. On another occasion, one new customer removed Pinnacle from consideration for 25 new regional jets. We let the union know what was at stake on both occasions and that it was imperative that we achieve a new contract in a timely manner. The union's response was that 'it's your problem.' We have a different view. This would have meant hundreds of new jobs for all of our People, including 200 new pilot jobs and immediate upgrades for 110 first officers. Success in this industry is based on growth, and we're offering a deal with that in mind."
"We're simply saying 'shoot straight with our Pilots, share with them what we've offered, not only in formal proposals but in informal meetings where we have agreed to your requests,'" said Seal. "One-sided negotiations can't be successful."
Pinnacle Airlines has a consistent history of reaching agreements with ALPA in 1989, 1996 and 1999. In fact, Duane Woerth, then president of ALPA, was quoted following 1999 negotiations as saying: "This is an extraordinary collective bargaining success. This is the way collective bargaining should work all the time. It's a landmark and a very positive result.'' (The Commercial Appeal, May 1, 1999). The Airline recently reached an initial agreement with the Transportation Workers Union to cover its dispatchers, the United Steel Workers for its flight attendants and has made wage adjustments for all other work groups.
"We want a new contract for our Pilots. We want to be at the table and bring these negotiations to a close. We have bargained in good faith and have repeatedly responded positively to requests from the union. We have been more than fair," said Philip H. Trenary, President and CEO of Pinnacle Airlines. "All of us built this company together under the premise that we are a team, and we think it's unfair that our pilots are the only employee group that has not had a raise since 2005. Now, it's time for the union to be fair by putting union politics aside and doing what's in the best interest of our Pilots."
About Pinnacle Airlines Corp. Pinnacle Airlines Corp., an airline holding company, is the parent company of Pinnacle Airlines Inc. and Colgan Air Inc. Pinnacle Airlines Inc. operates a fleet of 139 regional jets in the United States and Canada as Northwest Airlink and Delta Connection. Colgan Air Inc. operates a fleet of 49 regional turboprops as Continental Connection, United Express and US Airways Express. Pinnacle Airlines Corp. operating units fly over 1,000 daily flights and transport more than 10 million passengers a year to 134 cities and towns in North America. Visit www.pncl.com for more information.

 

[B19 Flyer]

:uzi:

Typical ineffective and incompetent response.
Lose the junior high crew like this and do something EFFECTIVE (like the UAL ALPA example) with dues. Do you really think the owners are going to jump on the pilots side by seeing JUNIOR HIGH materials lying around, or by seeing a professionally written explanation of just what is actually going on?
It's a simple deal, but you'd rather just tell everyone to QUIT???? That's the PLAN???
Gahd help us ALL if it is.
I don't WANT to see the union fail (like so many "supporters" on here seem to want to)... so WTFing LACK of something like what UAL did?

It is MOST CERTAINLY *NOT* apples and oranges...in fact it would be MORE effective in this case.

The grim reaper bs is not only immature, little boy bs, but offputting to whoever sees it.

NOT the attention we WANT to be seen as PROFESSIONALS.

How about refraining from ignorant clutter like WabiSabi et al, and posting "better" IDEAS? Better yet DON'T post them if it needs to be a big "secret" for whatever reason...TELL the leaders!

They obviously NEED them!

You way underestimate the owners. From the owners of fractional aircraft that I've been around, they don't need the WSJ to know that the company they've invested in is having union problems. They are much smarter than that.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Ugh

United is employee owned.

FLOPS is not.

I like what Pinnicle did better, it makes more sense. :laugh:

You are like a malaria infested GNAT that won't go away.

This is ONE guy that does NOT want to see a full page ad out ANYWHERE. I'm sure he is LOVING the reaper approach...only makes his side look falsely mature since every demonic thing they do is sneaky and underhanded.

You'd think that B19, though, would WANT the union to stick around, since that IS in fact the only reason he has a job right now. There's only so much an ex Eastern guy of a certain hire date can do once he commits career suicide.
Now BACK to the TOPIC, as it seems you make everything about you. uke:

 

[dime line]

My biggest complaint about unions is how they drag their feet when things need to get done. This is a classic example.

Kinda like the company management is doing right now.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

the elephant in the room

You way underestimate the owners. From the owners of fractional aircraft that I've been around, they don't need the WSJ to know that the company they've invested in is having union problems. They are much smarter than that.

...except that they need the UNedited version, not yours.
Kinda like here.

 

[Galaxy]

Voice,
I don't know why they think you are a mgt troll. I see you as a pissed off pilot that just wants action and wants it now! Unfortunatly, this is a crappy chess game that takes a long time to play.
I agree with the idea of the letter but think it out. The UAL business plan depends on customers and their returning business. That ad is a smack on the face to UAL MGT and will make passengers think twice about booking with them now. This will reduce the revenue (numbers) which is the only thing MGT looks at.
In FLOPS case the owners have CONTRACTS that they are locked into for a certain time. The customer is going nowhere till the end of the obligation. The owners know there are problems as most of them know it will take 3-4 jets to get them to the destination as the first few will break. FLOPS continues to provide poor service and the customers are going elsewhere. It is a revolving circle- have enough planes, pilots,mechanics to do the job and give each employee the tools they need to do the job. For mechanics it is time- for pilots it's green airplanes and competent crew.
Now.. the cost.. I think an ad like that was just over 100K for a 1 day print. Even if every pilot was paying dues (which they are not) is it worth all the dues is it worth almost 2 months of every dime to go to a 1 day ad to inform the few owners we have left that the S twins suck?
Again I like the idea but it is waaay to expensive for the return on investment so the FLOPS pilots can just say "see what we did". It will not bring any change to the current fight. It will piss of the two dingbats and B19 and they will think of something else to screw you with like double your health insurance...again..

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Thank you yet again, Galaxy for your mature and intelligent point of view...a rarity here.

If that is really the cost of a full page WSJ, there are still other newspaper (or similar) options.
I think the UAL letter is ideal if altered to our circumstances and would be a HUGE help to us.

For United's purposes, I don't think it hurt them in their passenger demographic terms, but then, a good majority of their passenger demographic only goes by cheapest fare, so I don't think it made much of a difference either way.

Here the owners have a huge investment, which they made based on a certain (now false) bill of goods they were presented...So I think that the right letter (and for goodness sake YOU write it because 98% of the goons on here are embarrassingly illiterate) would be amazingly effective.

Voice,
I don't know why they think you are a mgt troll. I see you as a pissed off pilot that just wants action and wants it now! Unfortunatly, this is a crappy chess game that takes a long time to play.
I agree with the idea of the letter but think it out. The UAL business plan depends on customers and their returning business. That ad is a smack on the face to UAL MGT and will make passengers think twice about booking with them now. This will reduce the revenue (numbers) which is the only thing MGT looks at.
In FLOPS case the owners have CONTRACTS that they are locked into for a certain time. The customer is going nowhere till the end of the obligation. The owners know there are problems as most of them know it will take 3-4 jets to get them to the destination as the first few will break. FLOPS continues to provide poor service and the customers are going elsewhere. It is a revolving circle- have enough planes, pilots,mechanics to do the job and give each employee the tools they need to do the job. For mechanics it is time- for pilots it's green airplanes and competent crew.
Now.. the cost.. I think an ad like that was just over 100K for a 1 day print. Even if every pilot was paying dues (which they are not) is it worth all the dues is it worth almost 2 months of every dime to go to a 1 day ad to inform the few owners we have left that the S twins suck?
Again I like the idea but it is waaay to expensive for the return on investment so the FLOPS pilots can just say "see what we did". It will not bring any change to the current fight. It will piss of the two dingbats and B19 and they will think of something else to screw you with like double your health insurance...again..

 

[Freedom]

The Strategy Voice of Treason and B19 (Bob) are working on together:

Notice how Voice of Treason is trying to make himself look like he is on the side, of the Options Pilots, attacking B19?

This is intentional folks. He wants you to think he is on our side, and wanting to help us find a better alternative to what the IBT1108 is offering us.

He puts out suggestions that we spend money we don't have to take out Ads in the Wall Street Journal. Did you know a FULL Page ad in the Journal will run you $100,000, meaning a quarter page ad will run $25,000! For what, exposure of ONE DAY?

The Billboard out by the Meadowlands Sports Complex by Teterboro was specificly selected because the Limo Drivers bringing the big dollars in from Manhattan told us the route they take, and its right by our Billboard, in the Owners face EVERY TIME!

Let's say 70% of our Pilots are paying Dues at $80 dollars per month on average. I think that's a high estimate of how many are paying, but let's be say its 70%. With 550 pilots total (600-approx 50 on LOA), 385 pilots times 80 dollars equals: $30,800 per month income.

Did you know that the monthly costs for us to Negotiate with Management, by the time all the Lawyer and other Professional Fees and expenses, and Salary replacements for our Line Pilots, and facility space rental are considered end up costing the Union approx $25,000 per month!!!!!!

What Voice of Treason and B19 (Bob) are trying to do is to get you to believe you need Representation, just not the 1108. They want you to be looking for a 3rd alternative. An In House Union, like FOPA. Because Management (V of T and B19) knows, with an In House, we'd never have the money to hire professional help to get us through the negotiating process. And then Management WINS!

Did everyone realize that the Billboard was paid for with Funds out of the General 1108 account, not out of the Options Pilots contributions? Who then do you think paid for it? That's correct, the NetJets Pilots supporting our effort.

Everything you see above is Voice of Treason and B19 (Bob) laying the groundwork for a Decertification Campaign of the 1108 at Options. They want the 1108 out, and a TOOTHLESS In House in. A Union that Management won't have to deal with in reality, just in appearance, because the In House will not have the financial resource (help from our NetJets Brothers) to adequately fund our fight.

Remember my Options Brothers, Management does not have to get the Union out to Win the Fight, just get out a Union with Resources. Painting the 1108 in a bad light in favor of an In House is their plan.

You can bank on it.

Freedom is not Free.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

:uzi:

Notice how Voice of Treason is trying to make himself look like he is on the side, of the Options Pilots, attacking B19?

This is intentional folks. He wants you to think he is on our side, and wanting to help us find a better alternative to what the IBT1108 is offering us..

OMG get a LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are the men in the white coats when you need them?
All these conspiracy theorists need to redirect their energy on something less "James Bond" and based in reality.
I have NEVER EVER in any way suggested an in-house union, yet you DOLTS attach it to any thread I post on because it KILLS you to see THINKing individuals trying to have a SANE conversation.
This is real life, not some crazy movie you create to make your life more interesting!

 

[CA1900]

What Voice of Treason and B19 (Bob) are trying to do is to get you to believe you need Representation, just not the 1108. They want you to be looking for a 3rd alternative. An In House Union, like FOPA.

That's a technique straight out of the Ford and Harrison union-busting playbook. Do it yourself -- you'll save money! You'll keep it in the family!

Nevermind that it'll be wholly ineffective.

Don't fall for it!

 

[Freedom]

Don't you love it when....

:uzi:

OMG get a LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are the men in the white coats when you need them?
All these conspiracy theorists need to redirect their energy on something less "James Bond" and based in reality.
I have NEVER EVER in any way suggested an in-house union, yet you DOLTS attach it to any thread I post on because it KILLS you to see THINKing individuals trying to have a SANE conversation.
This is real life, not some crazy movie you create to make your life more interesting!

a Union Buster gets caught with his pants down???

He takes it so darn personal. Kinda like someone caught him with his hand in the cookie jar.

Gotta love it!

Freedom is not Free, so fight on my Brothers and Sisters, fight on!

 

[Galaxy]

Thank you yet again, Galaxy for your mature and intelligent point of view...a rarity here.

If that is really the cost of a full page WSJ, there are still other newspaper (or similar) options.
I think the UAL letter is ideal if altered to our circumstances and would be a HUGE help to us.

For United's purposes, I don't think it hurt them in their passenger demographic terms, but then, a good majority of their passenger demographic only goes by cheapest fare, so I don't think it made much of a difference either way.

Here the owners have a huge investment, which they made based on a certain (now false) bill of goods they were presented...So I think that the right letter (and for goodness sake YOU write it because 98% of the goons on here are embarrassingly illiterate) would be amazingly effective.

Thanks-I don't see the need to bash anyone because a difference in opinion. I do get tired of Bob's Babbling BS the same ole crap--look at my union facts page that doesn't even list the IBT 1108 as one of the unions there. So no facts there....
Why not a website for the owners that isn't company run-like the ASAP Flightdeck site that was for NJA owners by the union? Sorry-www.flightoptionssucks.com is already taken by a former sales guy. Is it safe to say that most of the owners travel in and out of TEB? Would not the billboard be enough for now? Spending any amount of $$ on an ad that will come and go like the news is money foolishly spent. We all can agree that the owners could care less about your pay or job conditions. They just want to get from A to B for the cheapest costs to them. Thats why they are here anyway-we are the cheapest that offers more than they can deliver. Only when the pilots inhibit the owners from moving at their pace (hence the PLEDGE) will things change. It happened at NJA and worked. When the phone constantly rings off the hook at CGF with owners lawyers threatening lawsuits on breach of contract or the budget is so far in the red due to charter sell off will it ever have a chance of changing. So that is why the LOUD voices keep saying get on board, do the PLEDGE, pay your DUES. If you don't wish to do that then polish up the resume'.

I feel your pain-it's like banging your head on the wall at FLOPS.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Everything you see above is Voice of Treason and B19 (Bob) laying the groundwork for a Decertification Campaign of the 1108 at Options.

That would be a cold day in HELL when that would happen! I don't agree with the approach of what the union has done at times, but I would CERTAINLY leave if left to deal only with the MUCH WORSE alternative, as would everyone else. Unfortunately right now I see people leaving on a DAILY basis (key union people included) and that scares the H**l out of me...THAT's why I feel it is so necessary to put a visibly PROFESSIONAL image out there. The billboard is a great idea, but done in a more pointed PROFESSIONAL way that lets the owners know EXACTLY what it is these jerks have been doing

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Why not a website for the owners that isn't company run-like the ASAP Flightdeck site that was for NJA owners by the union?

SEE! Now THAT is the result of a THINKING person with intelligent ideas to add in a sane conversation.
That is an EXCELLENT idea...

 

[Galaxy]

:uzi:


It's a simple deal, but you'd rather just tell everyone to QUIT???? That's the PLAN???
Gahd help us ALL if it is.

Yo dude relax--The Union doesn't say quit..
I DO!
The place is so infected that it just isn't worth the fight unless you have a few DUI's or drove a BJ off a runway or statutory raped a minor in ATL on your record and it will be hard to explain at a job interview.
Guys that have gotton fired from FLOPS have found great employment fairly quickly so losing a crappy job isn't the end of the world here....