House Approves New Air Safety Bill

Tarzan

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First and largest nail in the coffin for the Regional airlines. Once retirements begin again, the bottom feeders are fooked. Maybe things will change before they all disappear costs for contract carriers will probably become high enough for the flying to go back to mainline. Less seats, less jobs, but better pay.
 

DiverDriver

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So it passed the House. Is it law yet? No.
 

N813CA

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yeah because those Delta Pilots are so much better!!!!
 

Skywest Pylot

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yeah because those Delta Pilots are so much better!!!!
This is not about Mainline pilots vs Regional pilots. This is about moving one step closer to being paid and treated as profesionals. The endless stream of inexperienced (200 hr) pilots must end.
 

ualdriver

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This is the sentence that concerns me the most...

Enables the FAA to consider allowing certain academic training hours that may increase the level of safety above the minimum requirements to be counted towards the 1,500-hour ATP certificate requirement.

If the ATP requirement sticks, I think the days of $20K/year regional pilot F/O's will be over on the next up cycle, and maybe permanently after that. I'll eat my words about there not being anything resembling a pilot shortage in the next several years in that case. However, if the sentence above allows the Regionals to reduce that 1,500 hr. ATP requirement by a significant amount (say half), it may just turn out to be more of the same.

I guess we'll see what the Senate has to say....
 

OCP

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Isn't this old news? We are waiting on the Senate to vote on it now.
 

CHQ Pilot

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Anyone that thinks a new hour requirement translates into better pay or QOL is dreaming. What about the early mid 90's where a regional FO had to have at least 1500 hours and closer to 2500 to get hired, only to make 14,000 a year? There will always be pilots willing to work for less as long as the allure of flying is there. Once the majors begin hiring steadily again, the regionals will once again market the pipe dream of get hired here, get the time, and move on. If anything there is more advantage to the regionals in the fact that as they move into the 90+ seat category, you don't have to worry about moving on to fly a bigger plane, it is waiting in front of you. The only caveat is will there be a steady pool of pilots willing to feed the CFIs. If the downturn in initial training holds then all bets are off, but if people return to recreational flying then I don't forsee anything changing (other than needing more hours).
 
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Tarzan

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Anyone that thinks a new hour requirement translates into better pay or QOL is dreaming. What about the early mid 90's where a regional FO had to have at least 1500 hours and closer to 2500 to get hired, only to make 14,000 a year?
You don't get it do you? What did training cost in the mid 90's? Compare that to now. NOBODY CAN GET A LOAN ANYHOW! QOL may stay flat but pay will increase as regional fight for qualified applicants. The only way to get guys back in the pipeline is for theym to know better pay waits. Unless that happens, your regional job is probably gone.

BTW, the only guys moving into 90 seats is your company thanks to that worthless union over there. How in the fook did a 99 seat rate get in there?
 

WayBack

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Big Gubberment is the answer to everything.
Why doesn't the almighty ALPA tell the gubberment to shut their hole, and they'll fix the problem? Maybe because govt knows ALPA can't get anything done?
 

B727Driver

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The "academic training hours" is the loophole for ERAU, Gulfstream, Comair and the rest. These training hours will have to be in an FAA approved school, in other words, same ol' same ol' + Govt b.s.
 

SEVEN

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First and largest nail in the coffin for the Regional airlines. Once retirements begin again, the bottom feeders are fooked. Maybe things will change before they all disappear costs for contract carriers will probably become high enough for the flying to go back to mainline. Less seats, less jobs, but better pay.
Wrong again Tarzan. The loophole about reducing time towards the ATP will mean more of the same. Although I do agree it's a move in the right direction. No more 251 hour wonders in the flight deck. They need to be gaining experience in aircraft they are "fit" to operate. Not increasing the workload of the PIC.
 

Smarta$$

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Will these rules changes stop continuos duty overnights. This 4 hours of sleep a night is killing me.
 

Caveman

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The "academic training hours" is the loophole for ERAU, Gulfstream, Comair and the rest. These training hours will have to be in an FAA approved school, in other words, same ol' same ol' + Govt b.s.
You're probably right about that. I also think it's a loophole for F-teeners bailing out of the military with a minimal number of hours. You know ALPA had their lobbyists make a few contributions to take care of the boys still back in the squadrons.
 

BrickTop

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This is the sentence that concerns me the most...

Enables the FAA to consider allowing certain academic training hours that may increase the level of safety above the minimum requirements to be counted towards the 1,500-hour ATP certificate requirement.

If the ATP requirement sticks, I think the days of $20K/year regional pilot F/O's will be over on the next up cycle, and maybe permanently after that. I'll eat my words about there not being anything resembling a pilot shortage in the next several years in that case. However, if the sentence above allows the Regionals to reduce that 1,500 hr. ATP requirement by a significant amount (say half), it may just turn out to be more of the same.

I guess we'll see what the Senate has to say....
The only thing this does is require instructors and students to devote more time teaching to meet the 1500hr min. The standards that need to be in place are 1500-2500 hr TT, 500 PIC Turbine Multi and an ATP certificate. To gain this kind of experience requires a pre-airline career beyond just instruction thus requiring airlines to raise minimum incentives (pay) to recruit higher experienced pilots. This new proposal in the bill will have means to circumnavigate and continue streamlined routes to the airlines with minimal experience. Don't look for much to change in the way of compensation.
 

wms

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This is not about Mainline pilots vs Regional pilots. This is about moving one step closer to being paid and treated as profesionals. The endless stream of inexperienced (200 hr) pilots must end.
There was a time when supply and demand required 1500+ hours to get to a regional. The pay wasn't any better and the regionals weren't any safer.

Don't think there will be an overnight transformation in our industry. In fact it might get worse before it gets better. When things pick up there will airlines that can't attract those pilots and they will go under, adding to the pilot pool for a while.

In the long term pay will have to be higher to attract qualified pilots, I believe, but it will be at a short-term cost. Remember, the regionals don't set their own fares and the ML's will not be willing to pay them more to fix their problems. Some will go under until ML pays more per segment to keep regionals afloat, or ML may find it cheaper to do that flying itself.
 

ualdriver

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The only thing this does is require instructors and students to devote more time teaching to meet the 1500hr min. The standards that need to be in place are 1500-2500 hr TT, 500 PIC Turbine Multi and an ATP certificate. To gain this kind of experience requires a pre-airline career beyond just instruction thus requiring airlines to raise minimum incentives (pay) to recruit higher experienced pilots. This new proposal in the bill will have means to circumnavigate and continue streamlined routes to the airlines with minimal experience. Don't look for much to change in the way of compensation.
That may be true during times of slow, below average airline industry growth but I'm not sure that's going to be the new norm *IF* this legislation passes as is. I think the regional airline industry is going to have to compete a little harder for qualified entry level guys, and that may cause some upward pressure on wages. My crystal ball is just as cloudy as anyone else's, however.

Those sentences I quoted earlier will undoubtedly create a loophole for some schools to get lower time guys in the cockpit, but after watching the House meetings on the internet, I don't think anyone is interested in putting 300 hr. guys back in the cockpit, either.

If this legislation sticks and regionals start having a more difficult time recuriting, I wonder if we're going to start seeing regional airlines try to secure their own pilot pipelines. They could establish specific relationships with certain accredited flight schools like ERAU or All ATP's or whoever, especially if funding for young people trying to get a pilot's education/training remains difficult to obtain. I realize that many of the big schools have casual relationships with some regionals now, but I wonder if we're going to see "ab-initio" type deals where you join a flight school knowing that when you get spit out at the end, you're lining up for a job at a specific regional carrier. That ab-initio student gets a degree or already had one, goes through the (MPL?) training, gets the minimum "loophole" flight time requirements by instructing at an ab-initio school, and then plops his butt down in the right seat of a RJ with say 1000 hours of experience and some sort of employment contract in exchange for reduced training costs or similar. So maybe the pay will stay low BUT that student wouldn't have 10's of thousands of dollars of training cost debt either.
 

CX880

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What will this mean for the rich kids and career changers that wanted to try this hobby and already had plans to pay for the flight training loan or have already paid it?
 

CX880

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What will this mean for the rich kids and career changers that wanted to try this hobby and already had plans to pay for the flight training loan or have already paid it?
 

Lolikoka

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UALdriver is probably right

UAL Driver, I think you are probably right. Some enterprising regionals are going to see an opportunity to make money in flight triaining in the new regulatory environment. Ab-initio/PFT hybrid of some sort. I don't know if F/O pay will go up much as the regional-level career guys who have other businesses to run or don't want the long-term pay cut to go to a legacy will ensure negotiations take care of the top of the seniority list.

It will be interesting - still waiting for the crystal ball to clear up.
 
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