Hours for PIC upgrade

[Coool Hand Luke]

The brokers are flight department managers now?

It is very embarrassing to see how many CORPORATE folks are on here saying "Whatever the insurance says is what it is". That's for the birds. There is a name for someone who lets the insurance company run their flight department: Loser.

Don't think for 1 minute that the insurance broker is the final say. Department managers at the top of their game tell the insurance people how it going to be, they dont ask. Lets remember who works for who here. At the end of the day, it's up to the underwriter who gets approved for what. If the underwriter is putting high mins on everything you do and you cant get anyone approved for anything, then either you are a department with a "history", or the broker has a poor relationship with the underwriters (READ: more than 1 of his clients has had claims, broker sells home owner insurance and does AvSurance on the side, etc). The mins everyone has chimmed in with are OK for an 'Open Pilot' clause, such as a contract PIC, but for a named pilot, no 2 people are the same, and if people are just accepting that because the broker says that is how it is going to be, then the department manager should be let go, as he is certainly not doing his job and probably bleeding the company's $ in other places as well.

Kiwi, notice the "Heavy hitters" here on FI didn't write in telling you "uhhh, you have to take what the insurance says because it is what the insurance says you have to do.", because they don't have those issues. They Call the broker and say, "Such and such is upgrading next week as soon as he gets back from recurrent. Have the insurance reflect the change and I'll be expecting a copy of that faxed over to me by end of business. CLICK!" At that point if the broker tries to say anything, he's talking to himself because the Dept manager has already hung up as he has other more important things to do than to waste company time talking to the broker. Keep in mind, as a professional, it is assumed you are not wanting to get someone approved that is not reasonably qualified. That is understood in writing this reply.

One piece of advice that will get you far: Don't take a 'NO' from someone who does not have the authority to give you a 'YES'.

AZ Typed is on the right page. Lots of the auditing firms do set their own mins, and they can dictate whatever they want, but as for insurance, 2000PIC, 100 in type? That's laughable.

So, the department co-pilot is ready to upgrade due to attrition. He has been a co-pilot for the last 5 years. He has been swapping every leg, doing all the flight planning, systems and pre flight checks, etc and he is fully PIC qualified, the PIC position was just not available until now, so he has less then 2000 PIC, but 3000 hours in type. Some broker is going to tell him NO and the loser department manager is going to go along with it?

Even better, now said department gets a new type of aircraft. And now they have to do what until they (Each PIC designee) get 100 hours in type? Insurance says all PICs must have 100 in type, so since the airplane is newly available to the industry and no production test pilots have been hired, is the airplane now parked? See where this is going? These are rules that people can't even explain if you ask them about them because they dont make sense.

Nice post Sir.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Could not agree with you more Blackjet. These insurance companies are a joke these days and it only gets worse when you trickle down to the broker. With the kind of premiums that we pay, the high deductibles (which is high, but the lowest we can get), and the amount of will not pay clauses that are put into the policies these days, we should not be asked to accept these ridiculously high standards. You have to put your foot down and if your agent will not go to bat for you, then find one that will.

How about this one, the insurance company now wants 50 hours of recent experience for a BE20. What? Yeah, 50 hours recent experience for a pilot that has over 8000TT, current BE20 school, and previous time in type. We're going to kick the agent in the balls Monday and see what can be done about this.

 

[Kiwi]

Jet Time Poll

Just for the sake of "flogging a dead horse'

Can I ask this question / Poll?

What are your company Mins for PIC upgrade / entry for JET time totals?

or do you not have them?

No this has nothing to do with insurance - but everything to do with someone protecting their job / position.

 

[TXGold]

5000+ but negotiable evidently.

 

[Kiwi]

Sorry chaps I'll make myself clearer.

JET TIME TOTAL hours required for PIC entry/upgrade.

 

[TxPilot0878]

I deal with our underwriter and broker and the answer to the question there isnt really a Minimum other than (in jets) ATP/Type Rating/100 Hours in type (which is iffy). The thing that changes is the cost....we are only paying 35K/yr for a LR60.....but if we took on a flight instructor with the bare min. it would be more like 87-93K.
But like Blackjet said...you tell them what they are going to do...don't take it from them. Now being in a large flight department is a lot more difficult because the issue might be yours but the decision to go with a lower premium isn't!

Tex

 

[Hung Start]

I agree. It is the insurance company. But can be worked around.

I have been flying a Citation II for two years now. Was a PIC from the moment I got my type. Have 300 hours in the thing.
Owner changed insurance companies and was amazed (after reading the policy ONE MONTH LATER) that I was not insured and he had been running around without coverage.
Seems the writing calls for 1,000 hour JET time, and even though I have 12,000 hours and about 4,000 turbine, it wasn't all jet.

So, it was a simple "named insured" clause that got me in.

Best read the policy closely, agents just sell the things, they don't really want to make it understandable!!

Good luck

Hung

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Anyone can get insured in anything. Its up to the flight department. If they want a person to be a PIC, they upgrade him/her and thats that. I was flying an experimental turbo prop with 500 TT because thats what the company wanted. There might be other pressures on the CP, but its not the insurance issue. Good luck!

 

[ultrarunner]

Sorry chaps I'll make myself clearer.

JET TIME TOTAL hours required for PIC entry/upgrade.

I depends Kiwi, but if I'm going to hire someone off-the-street to be a captain in our jet, that person will have, AT A MINIUM, 2000 hrs JET TIME TOTAL and 500 hours IN TYPE.

I have different minimums if I am upgrading someone from within.