Horizon - Skywest?

[ILStoMinimums]

OK, since this has been a hot topic of regional against regional.

How about Horizon or Skywest, if given the choice?
I think this would be a tough one, but looking into long term employment at both - I see QX in a better relationship with AS (stable) as SKW with DAL/UAL/CO - what are the other views?

 

[SWEMB120]

I have heard Horizon is a decent company, but they really like to hire 800tt UND pilots. I have had about 2 very experienced friends interview there and they didn't get hired because of that cheesey frasca sim they run. For instance one guy had 4,000tt ,mostly 135 cargo,ATP, A&P, checkairman for the company, couple type ratings, and I have flown with him great pilot. He did all the proceedures right in the sim just had a hard time holding steady ALT and IAS- basically flying the frasca sim. Can anybody shed some light on what Horizons problem is? UND PILOTS LEARN HOW TO FLY ON A FRASCA! Can they get a normal SIM in there? can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[JTrain]

Frasca's are annoying as heck to fly if you've never been in one before. There is a normal spooling up time in it, and it'll take you at least 2-3 sessions in it if not more to properly adjust. But remember, like with all sims, just because you are a 135 ace, flying single pilot night cargo in hard actual, does not mean you're going to go in there and kick A@!$. The Frasca is a b@!%^* about the roll axis; as I recall it held its heading fairly well though.

BTW when I was a CFI, my school gave us free access to the Frasca. This helped as I got ready to go on the interview circuit back in 2000; I spent a couple hours/day getting ready for the sim rides, and while the Frasca was painful to fly at first, as I adjusted to its quirks, it was really quite predictable. When I interviewed at CMR in June of 2000, I was so ahead of the Frasca it wasn't funny - and did far better than the two other candidates that day, one a King Air guy, the other ex-military/helo, both of whom on paper were far more qualified than me.

Bottom lines on the Frasca - it will really show if your scan is working. I guess the UND crowd interviewing at Horizon is fortunate they come in with lots of experience on it. A lot of the time in the airplane we get lazy for one reason or another. The Frasca will take these weaknesses and if you don't catch them, you'll be all over the place. However, if you know how to handle it, its not a problem. As such, I'd recommend for anyone doing a sim ride in a Frasca - get a few hours in it - it will make all the different in the world.

JTrain

 

[othello]

Just wondering if anyone would care to guess what % of new hires at Horizon do come from UND? I keep hearing that there are a lot of them over there.

How about CWU "Central Washington" they still have some sort of interview at low time agrement as well?

I had my stuff walked in with in the last 4 month at QX and is all I got was a postcard saying they got my resume. I am not sure what the trick is over there.

As for your question ILS I would say unless you plan to never leave SKW or QX and you wanted to be based in SEA than QX otherwise SKW for sure. Pay is about the same but the upgrade at SKW is 1/2 the time. Both seem to be better than Average regionals.

 

[Singlecoil]

Horizon adjusts the turbulence on the sim depending on how much experience you have. At least they did when I took it 8 years ago. I had 4000 tt 1100 multi at the time and they cranked the turbulence up. I think they even mentioned that at the time. The problem with Frasca turbulence is that it basically simulates severe up and down drafts. I used to train students in the same type of Frasca and flew it extensively. In my opinion, they had the turbulence set to about 8 out of 10. I pointed out to the evaluator that I was going to the stops with the yoke and was still either climbing or descending due to the up and down drafts. He just said, "Work with it," or something like that. I would go to the stop, with the yoke all the way in, and still be climbing at 500 feet a minute until the sim decided the updraft was over.
I'm not sure what that was supposed to simulate, but I think I only passed because I had about 50 hours of Frasca time and knew that was how it worked.

 

[SWEMB120]

singlecoil-
I totaly agree with you... my friend said they had the turbulence and crosswind cranked up on him to. When he was doing an NDB hold he had quite a corection. to me seems pretty unrealistic the way they run the sim. Seems like they try to weed out the experienced people. I talked to a checkairman not to long ago when I was jumpseating and he told me he was sick and tired of training 500tt UND pilots. He can't figure out why the people in charge of hiring send everyone with experince home.

 

[JJJ]

Airlines want pilots who don't complain, and do the job no matter what, even if it is in violation of the contract.

500TT pilots that are lucky enough to get a 121 job will do just about anything that the company tells them to do. They are just happy to have a cool job.

An experienced pilot will follow the contract more closely, even if it means parking an airplane in an out station because you've run out of duty time and the company wants you to part 91 the airplane back to a hub.

Low time pilots don't b1tch, and that is what the company likes. It makes them think that they have good labor relations.

 

[dkwid]

I interviewed with Horizon 6 yrs ago with a little over 4000 hrs of Cargo, Alaska and instructor time. the sim ride went smooth, another guy in my class pretty much bombed the ride but still was hired. Not so certain the sim ride caries all the weight. I think the UND mins are around 1000 hrs (not certain) a lot of the old timers gripe but the reality is they have mostly been succesfull in training and upgrade. As an ex-freight guy I have mixed emotions on the hiring but still the classes are mixed, some classes will have no UND'ers at all others will be full of them.

The sim ride has hardly changed over the years and I am almost certain it is the same for everybody. Whether you like it or not (no different than the cariers that do psych or motor skills tests) you should prep fopr the interview as needed, what they want to see is a decent instrument scan, if you are weak in the Frasca than you should probably buy a little prep time if Horizon is the place you want to work for.

As for Skywest and Horizon I think they are both decent companies each with their own issues. Their is potential for a big bang of growth at Horizon but don't plan for it. Skywest has noteably shorter upgrades at the time but that does not mean that when your two years have passed that the times will be the same. Pick a company you want to work for and plan on being their for the long haul and hope the industry provides you with better oprtunities in the years to come. Don't forget that Skywest and Mesa are hiring and upgradeing at the expense of NO job creation at United and Delta.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

None of those sims are particularly easy to fly. If you really want the job the trick is to get some prep time on a sim. No mystery there. All it takes is a few bucks and you'll be tuned into the nuances of the sim and ready to pass the ride. Of course the prep won't help if you don't have a solid understanding of IFR flying. A review of the pertinent sections of the AIM and the intro section of your Jepps is a good idea before any interview or even a 121 PC.

Both QX and SKYW are good companies. Since AS owns QX they may not hire that many QX'rs. After all when they hire a QX pilot not only do they have to pay for initial AS training but they have to also pay for a newhire at QX to replace that guy or gal. This is conjecture on my part. I don't know if it's accurate. However I know several SKYW folks that ended up at AS.

 

[dkwid]

Alaska does not actually own Horizon. The Alaska Air Group, a holding company owns both Horizon and Alaska. But obviously there is a very tight relationship between the two. As for hiring, Alaska does hire quite a bit from Horizon...more so as of the last few years....as a matter of fact when Horizon had pilots on Furlough and Alaska was hiring Alaska was hiring exclusively through the Horizon ranks.

Now this is purely a potential scenerio, so don't take it as fact...PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS AS FACT. Horizons union representation has sent a proposal to the Alaska Air Group concerninga bid through process for Horizon pilots. I did speak to a Alaska pilot the other day that claimed to be in the know (HE 'CLAIMED' ) and he said that an agreement was in process. I don;t know any details since their is ABSOLUTELY nothing to have details about. But, we have seem to grown closer in recent years and there MAY be potential for this to continue.

 

[Q200_FO]

The bid proposal is supposed to save the Air Group millions of dollars in training costs over the course of 10 or so years. Last I heard, both QX Teamsters and AS ALPA are in favor of the deal. If it does become a reality, then the upgrade time here will be shortened quite a bit. Which will make lots of people happy, including me. I've heard nothing out on the line about this proposal being shot down in any way.