honest questions about alpa

[120% Torque]

Before you start your usual attacks and calling names, you should research their services a bit. They give free consultation to general members, but they do have a dedicated lawyer service to help you, if you pay for their legal service. I know, my cousin flies cargo and received help from an AOPA lawyer with a mistake he made out in California. They did help him and he still flies. He does pay for the service, but did get legal help. It is more than a magazine. I am not fully endorsing their services, because I don't get paid to do so, but there are other options. The ASAP program is also there to help. Skywest doesn't just hang it pilots out to dry, regardless of what you pro-ALPA heros say.

Once again I had aopa ATP insurance (their highest offering), paid for it three years, when I went to use it it ended up being worthless. All they could do was give some very general advice that I could have figured out on my own, quote the small print under terms and agreements explaining why I wasn't going to get an attorney to help me at that point in time....and that after a conviction was in place there were some options I could persue but it would cost me extra. I dont care if your Aunt, Cousin or Sasquatch says he had aopa attorneys dig him out, thats just not how it works.

 

[Jmoney]

Disability

I'd also be curious the hear the specific amounts if a pilot cannot get his medical back.

I think everyone here knows what a retard your are. ALPA medical would probably consider that a pre-existing condition. I wouldn't count on getting any bucks for simply being "special."

-F-tard!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Once again I had aopa ATP insurance (their highest offering), paid for it three years, when I went to use it it ended up being worthless. All they could do was give some very general advice that I could have figured out on my own, quote the small print under terms and agreements explaining why I wasn't going to get an attorney to help me at that point in time....and that after a conviction was in place there were some options I could persue but it would cost me extra. I dont care if your Aunt, Cousin or Sasquatch says he had aopa attorneys dig him out, thats just not how it works.

Quit using facts, it confuses the anti-Alpa crowd!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Short answer is this:

1. IMHO: ALPA legal services are a joke (or were for me). Others report better results.

Please explain how Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) was exluded as you became the punch line of an ALPA legal joke?

 

[Tarzan]

I think everyone here knows what a retard your are. ALPA medical would probably consider that a pre-existing condition. I wouldn't count on getting any bucks for simply being "special."

-F-tard!

I don't care who you are. That there, is funny!

As far as Skynation goes, a wise man once said, "You can't fix stupid!"

 

[Occam's Razor]

ALPA Aeromedical's "saves" are numerous, and impressive. They have a very good relationship with Dr. Silberman and the FAA medical folks.

Where they've been indispensible has been on issues related to depression, anxiety, and stress. Calls and consultation with ALPA Aeromedical by an ALPA member do not have to be reported as a "health care provider visit" on the FAA medical form when you take your physical.

That alone has encouraged a lot of pilots dealing with stress from Bankruptcy, 9-11, TSA screening shenanigans, marital issues, etc, to seek help getting through it.

ALPA legal is your lawyer. If it has anything to do with your job...they represent you. Not "advice", not "consulting"...your lawyer. If you end up in Admin Court over a violation...they are there in court with you, as your lawyer.

A Chief Pilot on the warpath? They represent you.

And yes, your ALPA Loss of License policy will pay you 150% of your annual salary, drop your kids off at Day Care, write-stamp-and-mail all your Christmas cards, and set you up with Pamela Anderson after she dumps Loser #3.

Did I mention it makes mounds of julienne fries?

 

[Bus-Driver]

You know, I fully support the AOPA legal services plan. It's great, you can use it for anything aviation related, they provide a lawyer or you can pick your own and have him paid for, and it only cost $100 a year. I've used them before and they do work hard and fix things quickly. You also have AOPA backing you, the largest non-profit aviation organization in the world. There are a plethora of medical and legal services available for a only small fraction of what ALPA charges, but they probably won't buy you coffee (Oh, that won't be the case once the drive is over)

 

[KingNothing]

ALPA offers free pizza and a magazine subscription. Pretty spendy pizza and 40 page rag!

 

[MYFpilot]

However, you don't have to vote ALPA on the property to be able to buy it. Numerous insurance companies offer it.

True, but it's more expensive going shopping on your own. Take this for example:

Using age 30 as an example for 3000 per month from the 12 Month Wait/48 Month Benefit...

The Harvey W. Watt & Co. plan would cost you $374 per year

The ALPA plan would cost you $355 per year


Harvey W. Watt & Co does have plans that are cheaper. Such as the 12 Month Wait/24 Month Benefit for $324/year or the 6 Month Wait/18 Month Benefit for $263/year. However, ALPA is definitely cheaper when you compare equivalent plans.

Oh, and The AOPA legal services are $100 per year for Commercial/ATP and the benefits are limited. There will be out of pocket expenses if you need to go to court.

Thanks!!

 

[BoilerUP]

The AOPA Legal Services Plan will cover up to ten (10) billable hours with an aviation attorney, depending on the issue and circumstance. After that, the bill is on you.

http://www.aopa.org/info/certified/lsp_certificate.pdf

 

[FishandFly]

ALPA offers free pizza and a magazine subscription. Pretty spendy pizza and 40 page rag!

They offer a lot more than that.

Although I have never had any big issues, I have had a couple small medical issues.

I can not explain the value of having people to call who are 100% on your team when issues arise .

I called the medical department at ALPA one day and the quality of information they provided was far beyond what I would have received from any other source. And not only was I provided with initial information for my situation, the rep began to research the issue in greater depth and got ahold of me a few hours later to give me more information. Then called me the next day to see if there were any updates.

They deal with medical and legal issues for pilots from all alpa carriers on a daily basis.

The value of having this source of resource alone made alpa worth it.

----

Should the crap hit the fan with the FAA or company, being provided legal representation from the best group of reps available in the country is a benefit that I can only imagine the dollar value.

Attorneys charge $200 to $500 per hour on random work, I can only imagine what aviation specialists charge.

--

For someone to say that there is any comparable support system for an airline pilot is simply foolish.

Airline pilots deal with airline pilot issues. AOPA is a good organization, but I prefer to have representation and a support system that is actually designed to support airline pilots.

 

[Soverytired]

Please explain how Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) was exluded as you became the punch line of an ALPA legal joke?

"Hello, LEC rep? Yeah, this is me, loyal dues paying member 12345. I got a call from the chief and he wants me in his office in 3 days where he's going to have a conference call with the FAA. I need an ALPA rep and legal advice ASAP. Oh, and I got a LOI via certified mail today that legal might want to look at. Give me the number to call the lawyer(he does, and I leave 3 voicemails but never get a call back)"

"What, you'll call me back? Uh, ok, but don't wait too long. Kinda under the gun here."

(no one calls back so I do)

"Uh yeah, remember me? No? Well let me start at the top (I do). What? A rep won't be available? Uh . . ok. What about legal? Oh, he said "He's too busy dealing with pilots with real problems?"

Hmm. This isn't what I expected. I put a $5000 retainer on a private aviation attorney and get billed over $500 bucks for legal advice prior to the meeting, which saved my bacon by basically telling me to keep my mouth shut.
==============================


Your experience may vary. I've seen some real asshats get their jobs back after gross negligence bordering on incompetence, so clearly they are capable of miracles. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

 

[120% Torque]

"Hello, LEC rep? Yeah, this is me, loyal dues paying member 12345. I got a call from the chief and he wants me in his office in 3 days where he's going to have a conference call with the FAA. I need an ALPA rep and legal advice ASAP. Oh, and I got a LOI via certified mail today that legal might want to look at. Give me the number to call the lawyer(he does, and I leave 3 voicemails but never get a call back)"

"What, you'll call me back? Uh, ok, but don't wait too long. Kinda under the gun here."

(no one calls back so I do)

"Uh yeah, remember me? No? Well let me start at the top (I do). What? A rep won't be available? Uh . . ok. What about legal? Oh, he said "He's too busy with pilots with real problems?"

Hmm. This isn't what I expected. I put a $5000 retainer on a private aviation attorney and get billed over $500 bucks for legal advice prior to the meeting, which saved my bacon by basically telling me to keep my mouth shut.
==============================


Your experience may vary. I've seen some real asshats get their jobs back after gross negligence bordering on incompetence, so clearly they are capable of miracles. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

It's almost like you live in a paralell universe soverytired, you know the one with the "bad Alpa". The same place where "evil Superman" lives. Your examples fly in the face and are so unusually different from most other pilots experience her that it makes your posts wreak of agenda.

I mean lets talk about you here for a moment. If I am to understand correctly, you dont even fly planes for a living anymore but you did do a brief stint with Mesa where "evil Alpa" couldn't do one thing right and it was just bringing the whole place down...had nothing to do with crappy management? Prior to Alpa at Mesa the place was modern day shangri la? OK, well lets just say that you are very passionate about the industry because you are still tied to it and feel you should share your "wealth of information" for the good of the all. So you spend day and night on PILOT message boards discussing primarily one subject and one subject alone, Alpa representation! Yet once again, you are no longer a part 121 pilot?! If we polled 1000 people on this board and asked if they spend all of their free time in the "dispatcher" forums or "ramp agent" forums trying to convince that group not to unionize do you think that would seem strange? To me, your generic examples that lack any real depth or facts and your seemingly missguided zeal for a one topic on a pilot message board when you are not a pilot leads me to believe there are only one or two REASONABLE explainations: 1. You are management 2. You were hired by managment 3. You are crazy and need to get another hobby.

 

[Soverytired]

1. You are management 2. You were hired by managment 3. You are crazy and need to get another hobby.

1. No.
2. Technically yes, because every pilot is.
3. F-Yes (about the hobby, not the crazy)!

10 years as a pilot at Mesa isn't a "brief stint." It's no one's fault but my own that I didn't leave earlier.

Rez O. Lewshun asked about my experience with ALPA legal and a pilot rep in front of the CP, so I gave it. I didn't embellish, I didn't lie, I just summarized my own personal experience. I didn't say this is what YOU can or should expect, it's just what happened to me.

I'm now a pilot at a non-ALPA carrier and am pleased with that choice. It's not for everyone, but it's a good fit for me. Rather than conduct ad hominem attacks, why don't you just stick to the facts? ("stupid" "crazy" "anti-pilot", "evil ALPA" etc.) This "you're either for us or against us", black/white is ridiculous. There are advantages and disadvantages to ALPA; clearly I believe the scale tips towards the latter.


By the way ---> Best way to stop someone from posting is to IGNORE THEM.

 

[zawillif]

Short answer is this:

1. IMHO: ALPA legal services are a joke (or were for me). Others report better results.

ALPA is what you as a pilot group make of it.

In my experience at my carrier the legal services were a HUGE help and totally necessary. My buddy in a similar situation at a different ALPA carrier is getting absolutely nothing from his MEC. It all depends. .

 

[PCL_128]

Guys, it's obvious that soverytired now works for either Skybus, Virgin America, or JetBlue, and finds the need to justify his decision to work at a non-union carrier by bashing the largest pilots' union. It's best to just ignore him, and base your vote off of facts and not some opinion of a non-union pilot on an anonymous message board.

FACT: Skywest pilots currently have no binding pay rates or work rules, and an ALPA contract would provide it to you.

FACT: Pilots at Skywest have been terminated without just cause and have had to pay out of their own pocket to fight it in court. All of this would have been covered by ALPA for free.

FACT: ALPA has the largest aviation safety structure in the world and is responsible for a large number of the safety advancements that you and I take for granted every day we fly.

FACT: All of us are at risk for any range of health problems that could ground us and end our career. ALPA provides, free of charge, the Aeromedical department that has an amazing record of getting pilots their medicals back, even when the pilots' AMEs said it was impossible. In many cases, Aeromed can do this all over the phone in a matter of days.

FACT: What happens in Washington DC affects all of our careers more than any other factor. ALPA is the only organization that has real pull on Capital Hill to protect our interests.

FACT: Any of us can have a bad day and make a mistake on the line or in the sim that could cost us our career. ALPA provides the protection to save your career so that you can continue to provide for your family.


Look at the facts, and not some anecdotal story from a non-union, anti-ALPA pilot on a message board that no one can verify. If you base this decision on facts and not emotion and rumors, then the choice is clear: vote YES to representation at Skywest.

 

[sweptback]

"Hello, LEC rep? Yeah, this is me, loyal dues paying member 12345. I got a call from the chief and he wants me in his office in 3 days where he's going to have a conference call with the FAA. I need an ALPA rep and legal advice ASAP. Oh, and I got a LOI via certified mail today that legal might want to look at. Give me the number to call the lawyer(he does, and I leave 3 voicemails but never get a call back)"

"What, you'll call me back? Uh, ok, but don't wait too long. Kinda under the gun here."

(no one calls back so I do)

"Uh yeah, remember me? No? Well let me start at the top (I do). What? A rep won't be available? Uh . . ok. What about legal? Oh, he said "He's too busy dealing with pilots with real problems?"

Hmm. This isn't what I expected. I put a $5000 retainer on a private aviation attorney and get billed over $500 bucks for legal advice prior to the meeting, which saved my bacon by basically telling me to keep my mouth shut.
==============================


Your experience may vary. I've seen some real asshats get their jobs back after gross negligence bordering on incompetence, so clearly they are capable of miracles. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

You have the right to be represented in a meeting with management. If no rep is available at that moment, you also have the right to a reasonable delay to secure representation. At the very least you would want a witness in there.

You can of course choose to waive representation. That may or may not be smart depending on the topic of the meeting, although to he honest I can only think of a few situations where it wouldn't be a very bad idea.

It sounds like you chose to bring in your own lawyer to the meeting. I'm not sure why you chose that route over having a LEC rep (or other ALPA trained individual) in there, but I'm sure there is more to the story that you are not telling us.

 

[Nevets]

looking for info and not rhetoric or flames about alpa.

2 scenarios.

1-a pilot is involved in an incident, accident or whatever and the FAA seeks certificate action against him. he's an honest guy who made an honest mistake (ie: crossed and active runway, his FO struck a wing on landing or something similar). The company decides to fire him. what legal services would ALPA provide? is there a limit? how do they decide whether or not an attorney will be provided?

2-a pilot loses his medical (develops heart condition, eyes go bad, whatever.) he is no longer able to qualify for a medical, so he loses his job. what benefit would ALPA pay to this pilot, and for how long?

1. ALPA rep would be present for the hearing. ALPA rep & attorney would represent you at the System Board. ALPA attorney would represent you at an arbitration chaired my a neutral arbitrator.

You pay NOTHING out of pocket (other than the dues you've already paid of course).

On a related note, a REAL ASAP program saves many pilots from certificate action. This is something ALPA may be able to get the pilots of Skywest.

2. ALPA Aeromedical will help you through the process and bureaucracy of getting your medical back as soon as possible at no extra cost to you. ALPA also offers insurance services that you may purchase:



ALPA Loss of License/Loss of License Plus Coverage: Loss of License is the one type of protection every pilot needs. ALPA not only offers Loss of License Coverage, we offer two kinds--monthly and lump sum benefits.
Protect your family, your home and your way of life.

• Up to $3,600 per month in benefits if you are disabled from flying
• Prompt payout
• Under Loss of License Plus, 50% of your loss of license benefit if you are totally disabled when Loss of License benefits end.
• Lump sum benefit option available after 24 months of disability

ALPA Group Term Life Insurance Help make sure your family is properly cared for.

• $10,000 benefit option at no cost to you if you're an eligible first-time Apprentice Member on Probation with your Airline.
• Covers you during any flying - civil, recreational or military
• $250,000 Maximum*-(in $50,000 units) for you, and for your lawful spouse-$5,000 per eligible child. (Spouse coverage may not exceed member coverage.)
• Reduced premiums for qualified non-smokers
• Built-In Living Benefit ("Accelerated Death Benefit")- Not available to residents of MA
• Exclusive affordable group rates

*In addition, combined coverage under the Group Term Life and Ten Year Level Term Life plans may not exceed $1,500,000.
ALPA Lump Sum Loss of License Insurance: The money you need to start over if you lose your license, in one check.

• Complement to ALPA Loss of License Coverage
• Lump sum payout gives you the money you need to go back to school or start a new career

ALPA Group 10-Year Level Term Life Plan

• A Good Way To Supplement Any Life Protection You May Have
• Covers You During Any Flying — Civil, Recreational or Military
• Coverage Limits from $300,000 up to $1,500,000 (in $50,000 units)* For You and For Your Lawful Spouse (Spouse coverage may not exceed member coverage.)
• Built-In Living Benefit (Accelerated Death Benefit)- Not available to residents of MA
• Exclusive, Affordable Group Rates (Guaranteed to remain level for the first 10 years)
• Premium Discounts for Qualified Non-Smokers

*This maximum applies to Group 10-Year Level Term alone or any combination of Group 10-Year Level Term and Group Term Life Insurance.
ALPA Accidental Death and Dismemberment Insurance Available for you and for your whole family.

• Up to $350,000 in coverage
• Affordable group rates
• Acceptance guaranteed for Active and Retired Members to age 70
• Around-the-clock/Around-the-world coverage

ALPA Long-Term Care Insurance An excellent way to increase peace of mind - and your parents, spouse and in-laws are eligible!

• $100-$265 per day benefits toward long-term health care
• Spouse, parents and parents-in-law are eligible, even if you don't participate
• Home health care, nursing home care and adult day care included

ALPA Group Short Term Disability Income Insurance

• An Ideal Way to Fill the Gap Between Sick Leave and Your ALPA Loss of License Coverage
• Choice of Monthly Benefit Options — from $500 up to $3,000 (in $500 increments)
• Up to One Full Year of Disability Benefits
• Exclusive, Affordable Group Rates
• Reduced Premiums for First-Time Apprentice Members

 

[Soverytired]

You have the right to be represented in a meeting with management. If no rep is available at that moment, you also have the right to a reasonable delay to secure representation. At the very least you would want a witness in there.

You can of course choose to waive representation. That may or may not be smart depending on the topic of the meeting, although to he honest I can only think of a few situations where it wouldn't be a very bad idea.

It sounds like you chose to bring in your own lawyer to the meeting. I'm not sure why you chose that route over having a LEC rep (or other ALPA trained individual) in there, but I'm sure there is more to the story that you are not telling us.

There's not. My LEC rep told me no one was available to go with me to the dual carpet dance / FAA POI grilling. I was also told the ALPA attorney had "real problems" that he had to deal with.

Why do you think I have such a huge burr up my a$$ about ALPA anyway? When I needed them most, the hung me out to dry. No doubt pensioners at UAL and DAL fell the same way. Ooops, not ALPA's fault, they're only responsible for good, not bad.

Had I lost my certificate and my job I probably would have had an action against ALPA . . . one they no doubt would have fought to the limits of their treasury (far exceeding mine).

F ALPA. F Mesa ALPA x1000. ALPA made sense and had their heyday 30 years ago, but are a shadow of what they once were and have gone the way of most unions . . . corrupt and ineffective.

(you opinion just MIGHT differ, of course )

 

[Nevets]

There's not. My LEC rep told me no one was available to go with me to the dual carpet dance / FAA POI grilling. I was also told the ALPA attorney had "real problems" that he had to deal with.

Why do you think I have such a huge burr up my a$$ about ALPA anyway? When I needed them most, the hung me out to dry. No doubt pensioners at UAL and DAL fell the same way. Ooops, not ALPA's fault, they're only responsible for good, not bad.

Had I lost my certificate and my job I probably would have had an action against ALPA . . . one they no doubt would have fought to the limits of their treasury (far exceeding mine).

F ALPA. F Mesa ALPA x1000. ALPA made sense and had their heyday 30 years ago, but are a shadow of what they once were and have gone the way of most unions . . . corrupt and ineffective.

(you opinion just MIGHT differ, of course )

I'm sorry you had a rep that gave you bad information. Not everyone is perfect but its YOUR responsibility to know YOUR contract. YOU are responsible for enforcing it since a dozen or so reps cannot possibly now about some contract violation of 3000 line pilots on a day to day basis and the chief pilot is not going to do it for you either, obviously.

I don't know where you work but the standard ALPA contract says something to this effect (if not word for word) in the Resolution of Disputes section:

Investigative Hearing - Discipline and Discharge

1. A pilot shall not be disciplined or discharged without just cause and without
previously being afforded a hearing before his Chief Pilot, or designee if the
Chief Pilot is unavailable, provided that the pilot has made himself available for
the hearing.

a. The pilot shall be notified of the time and place of the hearing and the
nature of the matter to be discussed. The notice must specifically
reference that discipline may be assessed and that the pilot is entitled to
an Association representative(s) at the hearing as provided in paragraph
b., below. Concurrently, the Association shall be notified.

b. The pilot shall have the right to be accompanied to the hearing by an
authorized employee of the Association and/or the pilot employee of his
choice, provided the choice is reasonably available. In no case will a
hearing be held without Association representation, if representation is
requested.

So, basically, you screwed yourself on that one. Sorry to be the one to tell you.