Homebuilts/Ultralights

[urflyingme?!]

Anybody built one?
I don't think I could do it, but I found one that CLAIMS a 250 hr build time....
Any love or horror stories about em?

and yes I DO have thousands of free hours on my hands

 

[Mevans]

I am about 70 percent through building a Long EZ. Most claims regarding building times are optimistic. In general this is because they do not include the construction learning curve time, nor do they include doing things over. I am sure I coud build my second Long EZ in half the time. Do not assume kits take less time than plans built, often they do not. Most importantly, only build if you enjoy building, if you want to fly, buy and fly. You can see pictures of my project at http://mevans28.tripod.com

 

[ThomasR]

Homebuilt

I haven't built one but I am interested. I'll just hang out here to see what you all with experience have to say. Rutan's are pretty much the top of the homebuild tech. line. Do you have to cast your own fuselage or do they pre-cast it to mail out? Do you get a lot of people wanting to watch you put it together?

Some guys where I use to work built a race car and there were always people hanging around wanting to be part of something new they were all interested in. Big source of conversation, especially when they started racing it.

 

[Mevans]

The Rutan designs are plans built, other than electronics, and a canopy, everything is fabricated. Rutans are solid core foam construction. Foam is shaped using templates, (airfoils) or just measurements, (bulkheads), then covered with fiberglass cloth and resin. It is quite a conversation piece as is sits now in the garage.

 

[Snakum]

I've been researching homebuilts, everything from Kitfox kits to plans-built Stardusters (Acroduster Too, too ) and Taylor Monos. In my price-range the only thing that makes sense so far is a RagWing Special II. Less than $5000 ... all wood ... VW engine ... low build time ... etc.

I think I might be better of with something that'll keep the FAA out of my business, but I'm still trying to understand the term 'ultralight' v.s. 'ultralight trainer' though. I know the weight, capacity, and speed limits for a non-FAA-gets-in-my-business ultralight, but I've seen that the Kitfox Classic IV can be built with a Rotax 503 and it becomes an 'ultralight trainer'. Does this have any significance as far as Papa FAA is concerned? And does a Quad City 2-seater still fall under the 'FAA leaves me alone' rules?

Minh

 

[brett]

I've flown several RV-4s. Fantastic airplanes. Cramped in the back, but the newer RVs have more room. I will have an RV some day, but doubt I'll ever have the time to build myself. I've watched a couple get built at my airport. A couple still in progress. Takes years.

- Bret

 

[jbDC9]

I've flown several RV-4s. Fantastic airplanes. Cramped in the back, but the newer RVs have more room. I will have an RV some day, but doubt I'll ever have the time to build myself. I've watched a couple get built at my airport. A couple still in progress. Takes years.

Ditto! I've bummed rides in an RV-4, a -6A and Van's demonstrator -7A... man, awesome machines, and the -6A even had a smoke system installed. Now that was fun! The backseat of the -4 was pretty cramped, but not too bad; I've sat in the back of the newer -8, much roomier.

If you have to build one, I have two words for you; Quick Build. I'm guessing for the average builder the QB would save at least a year of building time... the cost is $8,000 on top of the kit price, but when you take a look at all the work that's already done, it'll seem like the best 8 grand you ever spent.

Someday I'll get to fly my QB RV-8, but for now all my spare time is spent in the garage working on it. It's quite a hit with the kids in the neighborhood... freaked 'em out to see airplane pieces in the garage.

 

[FracCapt]

Currently building RV-8....awesome airplane.

 

[seethru]

I must say that I admire all of you who are building your own aircraft. I can't even imagine building one myself and trusting it would fly. I guess if I could build it with a hammer I would have done so already.

It has to be a little spooky, andy probably exciting, taking off for the first time in something you've built yourself.

My biggest question with homebuilts has been quality control. Are you really that skilled or is it more of a no-brainer?

Curious.

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

My biggest question with homebuilts has been quality control. Are you really that skilled or is it more of a no-brainer?


Most of the homebuilt projects I have been around at certain stages an A&P had to come and inspect your progress. Some do not. They require brains and mechanical ability. I would guess if you do not already have 5,000 invested in your tool box then your mechanical ability may be stretched. Never say Never and if you could read plans and turn bolts and understand basic physics and engineering principles you should be OK.

Mark

 

[Lead Sled]

Your question asked about Ultralights and Experimentals. In my mind they are two separate categories. In fact, now you should include a third type in the discussion - sport aircraft. There are some beautiful well engineered designs out there, but flight safety required more than a good design - they must be built well and they must be flown well. I have seen way too many homebuilt aircraft that were involved in accidents for one or the other of the above reasons. I cringe when I see a 250 hour private pilot, who has flown little, if any, during the 5 years it took him to build his 250 knot retractable.

Are ultralights they safe? I think they can be, but like everything else there are a lot of things which must be considered. Most of them have 2-cycle engines that can be pretty temperamental. Several years ago in an ultra-light (my last UL flight, by the way) the composite propeller shed a blade and the resulting vibration ripped the engine from the mounts. The UL had amphibious floats. I was going for a corn field and the float braces got tangled up with the corn stalks as I was flaring to land. It rolled the whole thing up in a big ball - the ultralight, me and a bunch of corn. I wasn't hurt, but like I said it was my last UL flight. Would I fly one again? Good question. Designs and the quality of materials have improved since my episode 18 years ago. I've seen a couple of new sailplane and amphibious designs that could be very tempting, but only with a ballistic parachute. Additionally, no license is required to operate them because they are not considered aircraft. This is not to say that you don't need to know how to fly or can fly one without proper training. In fact, they can be pretty demanding and require a lot of skill and judgment to operate safely.

Are they fun? I was having a blast up until the point I had to start picking the corn out of my teeth. The one that I flew the most handled just about like the old 65hp Aeronca 7AC Champ that I learned to fly in.

Are they cheap to fly? A gallon or two of car gas and some 2-cycle oil is about it. They are not "aircraft" as per the FAA so all of the maintenance, airframe and engine, is completely up to you. They can be pretty spendy to buy. Like everything else, you'll have a pile of money tied up in one by the time you're through. There's probably not a lot of difference between a spiffy new ultralight with all of the "whistles and bells" and don't forget the ballistic chute and what you'd have to pay for an older 2-seat trainer. I would think that the main difference would be in operating costs.

Is UL time logable. These vehicles are operated under Part 103 of the FAR's and not legally considered aircraft and you absolutely cannot log the flight time you happen to get in them. However, they can be built and certified as experimental aircraft and then the time is logable

 

[dav8or]

Free time is great but you better have cash. I plan on spending 100k on my RV 8. Time wise go with the quick build and I learned that if you have an A&P school near by you might be able to get an intern. As for the 250 hour build time, look to see how many of them are flying. I bet you won't find many. BTW there are over 3000 RV's flying and more tommorow.

 

[sstearns2]

I haven't built one but I am interested. I'll just hang out here to see what you all with experience have to say. Rutan's are pretty much the top of the homebuild tech. line. Do you have to cast your own fuselage or do they pre-cast it to mail out? Do you get a lot of people wanting to watch you put it together?

Some guys where I use to work built a race car and there were always people hanging around wanting to be part of something new they were all interested in. Big source of conversation, especially when they started racing it.

Rutan may have been the top of the homebuilt industry in 1985, but no longer. If your looking for a homebuilt either buy a lancair or an RV. Lancair has the best builder assist program out there. If you have the cash your can build a really nice lancair pretty quick.

I'm building a KIS, if anyone has heard of that. I've totally redesigned everything under the skin and, yes, it's taking for ever, but it's fun.

Scott

 

[Mevans]

Sayin Rutan is now longer at the frontfront is only partially true. Rutan has certainly left the traditional homebuilding market, but I think he put a homebuilt into space last month. Also, for the type flying my Long Ez was desinged for, there is not a homebuilt or certified that will touch it.

 

[ThomasR]

Some real healthy advice from you guys.

What kind of jobs might be on the horizon with these new FAA regs.; if we can legally build and sell out of the garage? Do you have to get a contract with the manufacturers to build and sell their designs? Franchises operating in that fashion and then there are others that simply take the money for the original sale and let you do with it what you want.

I was reading about crop dusting with ultraLights comparing operating costs as the economic edge. Lower fuel costs, less turn around since the ultra's can land on site. Less load capacity but a quicker restock time and less maintenance.

It might be you could run three or four ultra's in place of one convensional plane.

 

[sstearns2]

Sayin Rutan is now longer at the frontfront is only partially true. Rutan has certainly left the traditional homebuilding market, but I think he put a homebuilt into space last month. Also, for the type flying my Long Ez was desinged for, there is not a homebuilt or certified that will touch it.

Well, as for the 'homebuilt' rocketship, when you have 20 or 30 million dollars of someone else's money, 45 engineers, 150+ shop techs and support staff, a full NC machine shop, and 10,000+ square feet of shop space, you are no longer a homebuilder. I used to be an engineer for Burt. It's a seriously nice facility.

I like Long-ezes in certain ways. They are a lot of fun to fly, but there are other kitplanes that do better. Long-eze's are pretty fast for the HP, but they also have unacceptably high stall speeds (the canard stalls), at least for me. I'm building a KIS. I've flown several long-ezes and several KIS's and their top speeds are nearly the same except that the KIS stalls 15 to 20 knots slower.

Scott

 

[weekendwarrior]

RV's are great airplanes. I built an RV-6A (my website is www.lacodeworks.com/besing). It takes more than you would ever think, but again is the most rewarding thing I have ever done.

As far as trusting what you built, think about that statement. YOU BUILT IT! Of course you are going to put the best quality in it because your arse is riding in it. The new kits are very easy to build compared to the old kits. Proper instruction from an accomplished builder and by joining the EAA and having people help you, then there really isn't anything to worry about. There is tons of help on the net (message boards and such) where everyone helps everyone. If you are interested in lurking around and reading one of the boards, try www.vansairforce.net. They have a board on yahoogroups.

I flew myself and my wife on a trip from PHX to San Francisco a couple of years ago. 4 hours, listening to music, in a custom interior, in an aircraft I built, with an unubstructed view from the bubble canopy that is priceless.

 

[ThomasR]

weekendwarrior

Would you recommend building an ultraLight without having witnessed a project before hand? I mean, how many surprises are invovled in putting an idea together? Some of these plans look pretty simple and the sales pitch is that you can put one together in a weekend. I have a feeling there is more to it and the average handyman might run into problems not anticipated.

Of course your project looks more complicated than a simple cross beam construciton, but how much preparation would you estimate one should consider before taking on a task like these?

P.S.
Great web site!

 

[weekendwarrior]

Yes, I think so. Especially if there are builders in your area that can lend a hand. When selecting a kit, talk to the manufacturers and ask the following:

How long in business?
How many flying?
How many sold?
Are there any under construction or flying in my area?