Holding

[C-5 MEM]

Is there any website that gives you holding instructions and allows you to practice?

 

[100LL... Again!]

No, but I have a "holding clearance training service" for only $2.95 per minute.

Its a 976 number, so call from work!

 

[Vik]

I can only hope its for your "friend" and not for you.

You want to learn holds, quick, easy and LIVE? PM dash8driver and he'll teach'em to you and he draws them in Paintshop, etc. I think he'll give you 1hrs of instruction via online chat for $45. He knows how to teach'em very easily .. easier than my "very experienced CFII" and the FAA's IFH.

He is the one that taught me how to do holds back in like 1998 It was free for me of course.

Is there any website that gives you holding instructions and allows you to practice?

 

[C-5 MEM]

I have a few students that I am teaching. I have tried everything I know and even tried other students. One student is catching on, but one is just having the worest time.
So thanks for any infor I can get.

TV

 

[minitour]

eh...holds are easy

Cross the fix and turn outbound...

-mini

 

[JAFI]

C-5, My problem "holding" students I would take to an empty space in a hanager and draw a 10 foot holding pattern on the floor with some chauk. I would have them walk and talk the procedure pretending they were in the aircraft, chart, stop watch, and check list in hand. This allows you to slowly work with them with out any distractions. And you can stop and back up or reposition to another spot in the procedure. Some thing you can't do in the aircraft. I would use the same procedure for begining IFR students on learning approaches. I worked for me.


JAFI

 

[FracCapt]

There is no hold that you cannot use a direct entry. It's all just a matter of bank angle.

 

[minitour]

There is no hold that you cannot use a direct entry. It's all just a matter of bank angle.

hmm...I said the same thing in ground school once...got the strangest look of confusion and hurt from the instructor...

Seriously though, why make it hard? Cross the fix and turn outbound...works for direct, parallel, and tear drop.

-mini

 

[JetBlast2000]

Is there any website that gives you holding instructions and allows you to practice?

Try this one!!! You'll love it.
Have fun

JB2k

 

[satpak77]

with holding, just do whatever is easiest. you will find you will almost always end up doing the "AIM recommended" entry if you do that.

 

[91100 100 set]

if you're teaching in a sim that has a plotter...

I was fortunate enough to teach some instrument students in a Frasca sim that had a plotter/printer hooked up to it. I was also a student in those same sims. When I was struggling with my where-abouts as a student, and would try to sneak a peak at the plotter, my instructor would cover it up and say "that's not for you to look at!" I never realized how big a mistake that was until my own students were in a similar situation. After a little while, I realized that letting them see the plot would help them immensely in figuring out where they were in relation to the hold, where they wanted to be, and which way to turn to get there. Pause the sim and let 'em see the plotter. Let 'em see what a hold looks like when it's really windy, let them see how the plot looks when they screw up. Ask them frequently, "okay, where on this approach plate are you right now?" That kind of thing will help them really figure out their situation, not just some mindless memory aids to figure out which way to turn for the entry.

 

[Vik]

That works until you get to your ATP checkride.

A friend of mine busted his checkride because he entered the hold outside of the recommendation however he never busted the protected airspace.

I remember reading the PTS and seeing that you could infact bust the checkride for doing something that is not recommended. So much for "recommendations"

with holding, just do whatever is easiest. you will find you will almost always end up doing the "AIM recommended" entry if you do that.

 

[satpak77]

Well Vik I appreciate your full 355 hours of experience, however at all my FlightSafety sessions and on my previous type rides (one of which was observed by a FSDO Inspector whose observation day turned out to be my "lucky" day), to include ATP, I did just that, and passed with no problem.

Don't know your buddy's situation, but the fact is, look at the hold, and simply do the entry that is easiest, and it should work out with no problem. The AIM designed the holds to be entered that way anyway, they were not meant to be entered from the "most difficult method" technique.

If the entry turns out to be a "close tie" to another entry method, and you can articulate why you did it, and of course you did it safely, nobody is gonna bust you on it, unless they are d1ckheads.

Too many student pilots get over-think the AIM or the FARs, for the most part they are common sense or have common sense undertones to them. Most students would benefit from stopping over-thinking and "just doing it"

later

 

[minitour]

...If the entry turns out to be a "close tie" to another entry method, and you can articulate why you did it, and of course you did it safely, nobody is gonna bust you on it, unless they are d1ckheads...

Good call.

They'd rather see you enter teardrop rather than direct as opposed to drawing the hold down on your chart, putting lines through it, figuring out where you are, then deciding to use a direct entry. Too much time off the gages and too much oportunity to become disoriented (or, as a student here has done, miss the holding fix altogether - ouch).

Just have a reason for whatever you do, be safe, and I'm sure you'll be fine.

-mini

 

[mayday1]

if you don't have access to a Frasca, just use MS flight simulator - worked for me, and your student can practice without an instructor.

 

[minitour]

FS is good...you can use hte "analyzer" after the flight to see what it looked like...

The point of a hold:
1 minute inbound legs
stay protected

 

[Vik]

First, my profile is not up to date, but even if it said I had 5 hrs, I just wanted to tell you why someone I know that went for his ATP checkride busted.

You're right in that most holds are setup for easy entry and you can just eye ball them, but apparently this one was not and the examiner busted him for it even though protected airspace was not violated.

Well Vik I appreciate your full 355 hours of experience, however at all my FlightSafety sessions and on my previous type rides (one of which was observed by a FSDO Inspector whose observation day turned out to be my "lucky" day), to include ATP, I did just that, and passed with no problem.

Don't know your buddy's situation, but the fact is, look at the hold, and simply do the entry that is easiest, and it should work out with no problem. The AIM designed the holds to be entered that way anyway, they were not meant to be entered from the "most difficult method" technique.

If the entry turns out to be a "close tie" to another entry method, and you can articulate why you did it, and of course you did it safely, nobody is gonna bust you on it, unless they are d1ckheads.

Too many student pilots get over-think the AIM or the FARs, for the most part they are common sense or have common sense undertones to them. Most students would benefit from stopping over-thinking and "just doing it"

later

 

[huncowboy]

Not sure if this is going to make any sense w/o drawing but hang in there as this is really good.

For this to work you should be heading directly toward the fix. (Seems kind of obvious but just wanted to point it out.)

Once you figured out your pattern:

1. Note the heading of the outbound leg. (NOT the inbound!!!)
2. Note the directions of the turns in the hold.
3. Next you have to divide your HI into 3 sections, then you will have to see into which section does your outbound heading fall into. If it falls into the area that is half the HI it will be direct, if it falls into the area which is the 2nd largest area that covers 110 degrees than it will be parallel etc...

Now here comes the trick: Cutting up the HI is EASY in the plane. Takes about 1 sec. Describing how to do it here is kind of hard though... for me anyways.

If you'll make left turns in the hold put your left thumb above the left side of the HI. For example: if you head 360, your left thumb should cover the left side of the HI so that it will hide the headings from 270 to 290. From 290 draw an imaginary line through the HI to its reciprocal, 110 in our case. Now you have divided the HI into two halves. The bottom is the "direct entry" portion. The upper half will be divided into yet another two by your current heading, in our case 360. This way you'll end up with three areas. The one left of 360 will be the teardrop area (smallest), the one to the right will be the parallel area (2nd largest), and the bottom is the direct area.

Now point out your outbound heading on the HI. See into which area would that fall into.

If this did not make sense look at the drawings on this page. It talks about the same thing I believe:

http://www.pilotsweb.com/train/pattern.htm

Off course for all this the student should be able to draw holds, and in general understand how holds work. Also watch for wind correction. It can screw you a bit if it is too windy. If you hold a large wind correction angle than you need to use your magnetic course if you know what it is. If you are partial panel than just twist the OBS of the VOR to your current heading and there is your new HI.

Hope this helped.

 

[johnpeace]

I learned to just enter the hold in whichever way will keep me closest to the inbound leg...which entry makes the most sense given my intercept angle.

Practicing in the sim helped a lot.

You might want to get Rod Machado's instrument book and read the chapter on holding patterns, he offers a lot of down to earth, common sense advice on holds.