Holding protected airspace?

[s3jetman]

Okay i have heard so many differnt things on this subject i am wondering if anyone knows the real answer and were i can find in written fourm. please help. i have heard the following?

On the holding side you have 8miles - 5 miles - 3 miles of protected airspace

on the non holding side i have heard 1.5 miles - 2 miles - 3 miles - 4miles.

and ten miles from the fix outbound on the holding radial side and then a space that it would take an airplane going 265kts at a standard rate turn for the end.

can some one please help and let me know

 

[BamBamJet]

Holding

I am not 100% on this but I do believe you get 8 miles on the holding side and 4 miles on the non holding side. I searched the aim briefly and couldnt come up with anything but I recall seeing it in there. Apologies for not being 100%.

 

[80/20]

FAA Order 7130-3A, holding pattern criteria, has detailed answers two the questions. This handbook is used by airspace planners to determine holding pattern airspace area dimensions.

 

[Andy Neill]

VERY interesting reference 80/20! It is significantly different that when I learned this stuff in '77.

There are 31 different templates to be used depending on speed, altitude, distance from fix. The sizes range from 11.6 x 6.7 nm to 84.9 x 57.0 nm. Pages 2-15 and 2-16 give the details for how each is constructed. (Para 2-33 Basic Area Construction).

The protected area on the non holding side ranges from 2.6 nm to 22.5 nm and on the holding side from 4.1 nm to 34.5 nm

 

[80/20]

To further complicate it, once we leave the US, many other nations will base holdings on ICAO Document 8168 - Procedures for Air Navigation Services.

 

[s3jetman]

okay i see alot of people have looked but few have replied. Thank you 80/20 for that info. do you know where or how i can get a copy of FAA order 7130-30. i am kinda new to this ground instruction thing and just want to make sure i give the students the correct information. thank you

 

[avbug]

It's available on summit publications on CD ROM with every other FAA publication (plus more) that you can imagine, for a hundred bucks.

Rather than try to memorize each template and formula, simply explain to your students that if they hold at the appropriate airspeed and observe the appropriate limitations, they'll be fine.

The "protected" airspace is considerably larger than what you'll use when entering the hold, or holding.

You'll find in your instructing that your job is to simplify the material as much as possible for a student. Too much information just complicates things, and in this case, what the student needs to know is that by staying with the appropriate limitations, they are safe. The dimensions of the holding area are larger than what you'll use, and that's more than enough for the student.

 

[80/20]

Too much information can be just as bad as too little

Avbug suggests that instructors should explain practical implications, I agree a 100%. Information overload is like drinking from a fire hose where you can only swallow a tiny portion. Important information should be served in digestible pieces without excessive nice to know information that might take the place of the essential practical points.

On the other hand, teaching can be compared to fighting a battle; if you are unable to enter the castle through the front door then you must try attacking from another side. Try the side or back entrance or keep hitting different walls until you find a crack. In teaching, if one explanation does not work then find another. Some instructors only use the same books as their students. Few books offer a complete and easy-to-understand coverage of all topics. Various references can give you inspiration and different explanations. Dedicated instructors are constantly collecting good explanations. Veteran instructors have large collections of stories. They know where to find information, examples and explanations - this is called experience and is very useful as long as it is used correctly.

My dad once told me that the more you learn about something the more you understand how little you know. This is certainly the case here. The answer about holding gets longer the more we dig. Factors that are considered in holding criteria include: NAVAID error, average aircraft instrument error, intersection error related to distance of the holding point from the furthest NAVAID, common pilot technique/error, analysis of winds recorded over a five-year period and so on. The TERPS have additional information.

Again, as Avbug said, good instructing is to simplify the material as much as possible.

The Summit CD is one good source for information. Some FAA orders are available at www.faa.gov (don't know about 7130-3A), you can often view paper copies at many FAA facilities or order them through the Advisory Circular Checklist. The best and most complete digital source is IHS www.ihserc.com . IHS' target customers are airlines, manufacturers and government - which explains their high price.

 

[midlifeflyer]

s3jetman wrote:
okay i see a lot of people have looked but few have replied. Thank you 80/20 for that info. do you know where or how i can get a copy of FAA order 7130-30.

I agree with avbug and the others. Our job is to make things simpler for our students, not more complicated. But if you want to read up on this so that you understand it better, it' (and a lot of other TERPS information) is available here:

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/directives page.htm

 

[80/20]

I would emphasis how close you can be to other aircraft and terrain. Fly 60 seconds in the wrong direction and you can be lined up for controlled flight into terrain. This is well illustrated in the video reenactment of the B-727 that crashed into mount Teide in 1981 killing all 146 on board after a short deviation from their holding pattern. A picture can tell more than a thousand words, or complicated FAA handbooks.

 

[s3jetman]

8/20, midlifeflyer, avbug thank you for all your information. I will take your advise about teaching my students and run with it. That is the way i like to teach "KISS". I am only 23 and have about 2.5 years of avitation experience. I knew nothing just 2.5 years ago. I have got my private, instrument, sinlgle comm. and multi- comm. in that short time as well about 350hrs of ariline flying. now i teach groundschool. I am just the type of person who if I dont know something and cant find an answer for it. It will bother me till i do. The information is more for my pleasure not to teach with. Again i teach KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid - method. I am glad there are web sites like this were we all can learn more than anyone whants to know. We all have the same passion and as i read some articles i wonder if i chose the right profession to go into. Then i discover how many people in this field there are like 8/20, midlifeflyer, avbug that are willing to share there knowledge and experience with someone pretty new to the aviation world. i just want to say thanks to all who share their experience and knowledge in this website. THANK YOU!

 

[avbug]

One last parting shot, and that is that you should strive to remember what you know right now. That may sound odd, but I'll explain.

As we move on in our careers, it's very easy to forget what it is like to start from scratch, to learn the business. As you strive as an instructor, right now you can look back and remember what that's like: you can empathise with the student. Don't lose that.

Instructing is very different from teaching, and I believe all good instructors should strive to be teachers. Something I found as I moved along was that as I lost some of the feeling for what it was like to be a newbie to the subject of aviation, I lost my perspective a little, and my job became harder.

Remember it from the student's point of view, and it will pay dividends for you in your instructing and teaching endevors. Good luck!