Hold as published?

[districtpilot]

I had an interesting experience flying into RWI airport. Washington center had me proceed direct to Jambe NDB(the FAF for ILS 4) and hold as published. The IAF is Belga INT about 6 NM before Jambe on the localizer. The problem is that there is no holding pattern published anywhere, not on any of the approach plates, not on the enroute chart. There used to be an NDB approach into RWI, not any longer. So I say to Washington its not published anywhere, he then has me fly to TYI VOR and hold as published. OK well at least its legal. He finally clears me back direct to Jambe NDB and clears me for the approach. Jambe being the FAF, can he clear me direct to a FAF? Im thinking he was kinda irked by my correction to him and he was being a jerk because it was about a 100 degree turn to intercept the localizer.

 

[mar]

Dunno

I looked at the plate here: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0604/05743IL4.PDF

Seems like BELGA would be a more natural choice for a hold.

You said you checked the enroute chart and the approach plate for a published hold at JAMBE, but is this airport depicted on an area chart? I'm not familiar with this area so I don't know.

Regardless, yes, ATC can clear you direct to the FAF if you're in radar contact and above their minimum altitudes. Judging by the MSA (3,300') I'd say if you were above that (within 25nm, of course) you'd by fine.

Sounds like maybe ATC got a little flustered. No big deal, just try to stay flexible and resourceful which it seems like you were.

All's well that ends well.
Good luck.

 

[Hold West]

I had an interesting experience flying into RWI airport. Washington center had me proceed direct to Jambe NDB(the FAF for ILS 4) and hold as published. The IAF is Belga INT about 6 NM before Jambe on the localizer. The problem is that there is no holding pattern published anywhere, not on any of the approach plates, not on the enroute chart. There used to be an NDB approach into RWI, not any longer. So I say to Washington its not published anywhere, he then has me fly to TYI VOR and hold as published. OK well at least its legal. He finally clears me back direct to Jambe NDB and clears me for the approach. Jambe being the FAF, can he clear me direct to a FAF? Im thinking he was kinda irked by my correction to him and he was being a jerk because it was about a 100 degree turn to intercept the localizer.

Here's the NACO plate: http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0604/05743IL4.PDF

First, you say there's no published holding on the plate. Isn't that thing at BELGA a holding pattern? I'm not being a smart ass, I'm serious. I know its purpose is for course reversal instead of a procedure turn, but it sure looks like I could clear someone to BELGA, hold SW as published. Anyone know any reason why that couldn't be done?

Regardless, the controller didn't clear you to BELGA, he said JAMBE. Obviously wrong, and you called him on it. Good. So on you go to TYI and hold. I have questions again. Coming from TYI direct JAMBE looks like a lot more than a 100 degree turn to final, more like 175. Wouldn't you go outbound on the localizer, reverse course in the holding pattern, and proceed inbound on the approach?

Of course, were it me, and you were holding at TYI, I'd have cleared you for the approach via the TYI R227 to BELGA. Got a nice MEA on it and everything.

As far as clearing you for the approach from over the FAF, that's wrong. My book says this:

4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE

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a. Clear aircraft for "standard" or "special" instrument approach procedures only. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference. An aircraft conducting an ILS/MLS approach when the glideslope/glidepath is reported out of service shall be advised at the time an approach clearance is issued. Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an Initial Approach Fix. Area Navigation (RNAV) Standard Instrument Approach Procedures may begin at an Intermediate Approach Fix for aircraft that have filed an Advanced RNAV equipment suffix when the conditions of subpara b4 are met. Where adequate radar coverage exists, radar facilities may vector aircraft to the final approach course in accordance with para 5-9-1, Vectors to Final Approach Course.
​

​

I hope this helps some, and we'll surely get more discussion.
​

 

[Say Again Over]

The second clearance seems completely normal, TYI appears to be a IAF, since it is not marked (no pt), course reversal via the holding pattern is required.

 

[charter dog]

Niether JAMBA nor TYE are IAFs. However, there is a transition depicted to BELGA (IAF) via the TYE 227R at 2700. I wonder if the controller was referring to some chart other than the current NACO ILS 04. The transition from TYE would seem the most logical clearance to get to BELGA for the ILS 04. Or direct BELGA if RNAV equipped. Or direct JAMBA direct BELGA if not. Hopefully, a pilot receiving the clearance quoted in the original post would know to proceed from JAMBA to BELGA even though this is not a published transition or intermediate segment and execute a course reversal via the depicted hold. This clearance was ambiguous by it's nature and should have been clarified if any doubt existed. Live and learn.

Best,

 

[districtpilot]

Ok just to clarify a few points. I meant no holding pattern published at Jambe. My thought was that he should have just cleared me to Belga for the hold. I was coming in from the east and was enroute to TYI but never made it there because the preceding pilot closed his IFR. So it was at that point that I was cleared direct to Jambe. Let me add also he said maintain 2100 until established. Holding at Belga would require 2700 feet. So I made the turn and landed. I don't think it was intention for me to execute the full procedure. There was another aircraft behind me coincidently enough was told to hold at TYI VOR as published.

 

[mar]

Bum steer.

I hate to say it my friend, because more often than not ATC has saved my bacon, but I think you got a bum steer.

Proceeding from TYI direct JAMBE at 2100' is *totally* out of line....unless you were under positive radar control (radar vectors) but even then I'd have to ask ATC, "What is your Minimum Vectoring Altitude (MVA) is this area."

And who cares if that irks him even more???

You notice those two obstacles (406' and 358') on the transition from TYI, I'm sure those are the "controlling" obstacles that determined the min alt of 2700' to BELGA....*NOT* JAMBE (even though it appears the transition route is inbound to JAMBE.

This is a very basic mistake, to just look graphically at the chart when you're in a rush, and not reading the important text.

If things panned out the way you say they did (and I have no reason to doubt it) I'd say it sounds like ATC was getting busy (you and two other planes with no approach control) and he missed two important details.

If it were me (hindsight being 20/20, and Monday morning quarterbacking) I would have reported to him (so that it's recorded on tape) my intention to proceed to BELGA via the published transition at 2700' and execute the course reversal. And then when I got on the ground I'd fill out a NASA form.

If there's an investigation (and I'm not saying there will be) at least you'd have your position on tape and a written record.

But like I said, all's well that ends well.
Live and learn to fly another day.

 

[Hold West]

Ok just to clarify a few points. I meant no holding pattern published at Jambe. My thought was that he should have just cleared me to Belga for the hold. I was coming in from the east and was enroute to TYI but never made it there because the preceding pilot closed his IFR. So it was at that point that I was cleared direct to Jambe. Let me add also he said maintain 2100 until established. Holding at Belga would require 2700 feet. So I made the turn and landed. I don't think it was intention for me to execute the full procedure. There was another aircraft behind me coincidently enough was told to hold at TYI VOR as published.

Yeah, lots of problems there. I don't know what the MIA is there (note it's center airspace, so Minimum IFR Altitude, not MVA, Minimum Vectoring Altitude) but it can't be too much different from the 3300 MSA due to the 2208 obstruction. 2100 direct JAMBE from TYI don't look too good to me.

We controllers don't know everything, and sometimes we don't know anything. The pilot is always the first to arrive at the scene of a crash, so question, question, question.

 

[h25b]

I used to flight for a company that does shuttle flights in to there on Tuesdays and I could swear that there used to be a published holding pattern at JAMBE... Maybe it has been removed and the controller was just going from memory. I know that I have held there before on the LOC while waiting for fog to lift.

 

[Hold West]

I exchanged e-mail with two guys at ZDC that work that area, both said the approaches all changed in the last year, and that the altitudes changed as well, which probably contributed to a little confusion.

Always question if something does not make sense.