High Flying Pilots, Lower Paying Jobs: Article

[T1bubba]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.pilotjobs20jun20,0,3155070.story?coll=bal-business-headlines

Apparently this is news?

 

[80drvr]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.pilotjobs20jun20,0,3155070.story?coll=bal-business-headlines

Apparently this is news?

Typical media BS. I've seen the W2 of an 11 year SWA friend (flying about 85/mo) and it's about 45% higher than the pay mentioned in the article. I guess they based all their numbers on Air Inc data, which I never thought was very accurate by the time they extended it out to yearly salaries.

 

[Resume Writer]

"More than 4,000 pilot jobs have been created in the first five months of this year, almost as many as in all of 2003 -- the worst year for pilot employment in more than a decade, according to AIR Inc."

Really? Can anyone tell me where these 4,000 jobs have been created? Southwest is hiring the most (I believe) at 400 (or more) for this year. How many for AWA (about 160??) Anyone else have more accurate numbers??

If this is so, then how come there are still over 9,000 pilots on furlough?

I am just asking here. Forgive my ignorance...

Kathy

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

It was a good article

I read it today on my commute from BWI to DEN. (I picked up a free SUN outside of Baggage Claim by the employee bus drop-off.)

There appear to be some facts that are not correct, but the overall article did a good job of explaining what many furloughed pilots from the majors have gone through. Keep in mind it is a Baltimore paper and it shadowed a former USAir pilot that now flies for USA 3000 out of BWI. It didn't mention that Dawn flew the Airbus and that USA 3000 has benefited from having pilots available with experience in type.

My story is very much the same, TWA to AA furloughed and unemployeed for almost six months and now flying Captain on internation on the MD80 with over 5000 hours in type, making about 65% of what I was making as a domestic F/O.

It was a good local interest story. I can see why it wouldn't seem news worthy to T1BUBBA. You were probably hired to SWA right out of the military and are most likely a commutter out of BWI, one of the SWA's junior bases. I just hope you got one of the free newspapers. If you paid for it, you probably won't be upgrading soon.

I think the general public may find the article interesting as they see the airline landscape change in the Baltimore/Washington area.

 

[T1bubba]

It was a good local interest story. I can see why it wouldn't seem news worthy to T1BUBBA. You were probably hired to SWA right out of the military and are most likely a commutter out of BWI, one of the SWA's junior bases. I just hope you got one of the free newspapers. If you paid for it, you probably won't be upgrading soon.

I think the general public may find the article interesting as they see the airline landscape change in the Baltimore/Washington area.

I just thought the "end of the legacy carriers/rise of the LCCs" theme had been beaten to death. The Sun mentions US's decline and SWA's rise at BWI in almost ever airline/airport article it reports.

BTW, I live in Baltimore. And the Sun is free online every day, no matter where I am!

T1

 

[80drvr]

I just thought the "end of the legacy carriers/rise of the LCCs" theme had been beaten to death. The Sun mentions US's decline and SWA's rise at BWI in almost ever airline/airport article it reports.

BTW, I live in Baltimore. And the Sun is free online every day, no matter where I am!

T1

I've got to agree with you there. The media doesn't seem to grasp this business. If the LCC's run all of the legacy network carriers out of business as they purport, then they will ultimately become the legacy carriers of the future and will be ripe for picking by startups with new fuel efficient fleets and junior low cost labor. Or maybe the media is right and we'll go this airline renewal cycle every 15 years or so. I hope they're wrong for all our sakes.

 

[BRA]

i think they added all the regional airline hiring to the 2004 number. Eagle, mesa, coex, asa. Even just a year ago regional airline hiring was extremely slow.

 

[Resume Writer]

i think they added all the regional airline hiring to the 2004 number. Eagle, mesa, coex, asa. Even just a year ago regional airline hiring was extremely slow.

Even with that, I still do not see how the numbers are 4000. Maybe I am wrong, but 4000 positions since the beginning of the year is a hefty number. That would mean about 800 or so pilots would have to be hired each month by all the carriers.

Things that make you go hmmmm...

Kathy

 

[TUPAK]

"So most senior pilots on furlough from major carriers such as United Airlines or Delta Air Lines prefer not to start over, Mazor said. Rather, they harbor hope they can return to their carriers once openings are generated from growth or retirements."

"Many of the 9,700 pilots on furlough have taken non-flying jobs elsewhere, industry experts say. That's about 11 percent of all licensed commercial pilots."

"The jobs [available] are not at all at the best companies, as far as pilots are concerned. They don't have the bigger planes. Many of those companies --Delta, United, American, Northwest and Continental -- all still have pilots on furlough."

The writer explains that this is why that you still have furloughed pilots out there. As far as the 4000 number, I'm not sure where she got the number other than the AIR Inc propaganda machine probably or cumulative hirings from LCCs, regionals, and smaller companies that most have never heard of such as Allegiant Air, Arrow Air, Carribean Sun Airlines, Farwest Airlines, etc.....

Just my thoughts...

 

[STL717]

Link to Air,Inc. job numbers as of May 2004


http://www.jet-jobs.com/press%20releases/06.10.04.html

 

[N2264J]

Re: High Flying Pilots...

One day this week, Dawn Rowley flew to Punta Cana in the Dominican Republic, relaxed at a resort for eight hours and flew home to Baltimore. Not a bad day's work, she thought.

Reduced rest overnight? Brutal.

 

[enigma]

Link to Air,Inc. job numbers as of May 2004


http://www.jet-jobs.com/press%20releases/06.10.04.html

Has anyone EVER been able to verify Darby's numbers pertaining to hiring?

I think he's full of Barbara Streisand. If you figure 2.5 crews per airplane, it would take 1200 new airplanes to equate to to the 6000 new jobs he advertises in the back of aviation magazines; and in the free advertising he gets in the same magazines each and every time they need to sell a few copies to the starry eyed.

Air Inc has never been anything but a way for Darby, et al, to make money. They harder it is to get a good flying job, the more money Darby makes. It's to his advantage to have an oversupply of pilots, so he puffs up numbers in an attempt to convince people that their chance is just around the corner.

If you want to see a truly significant number, look up the total number of professional pilots enjoying a full time job. Just as the Labor department is touting the number of new jobs created in the last 20 months, and neglecting to tell that they are lower paying than the jobs lost in the previous period; Air Inc reports pilot hiring in a way to spin the numbers to their advantage.

If you really need Air Inc's info (btw, no one should in todays internet/info age) then go ahead and pay them, just don't fall for their BS.

For those who have forgotten, FAPA (Air Inc's predecessor) and Air Inc exist primarily to help military pilots gain info about the civilian world. One only needs reference their publications from years past to see who they were really helping to gain employment. So all of you CFI's who sign up for the magazine are only subsidizing the competition.

enigma

edit, one more point. There is nothing wrong with being in business to make money. However I believe it to be unethical to mislead people, and I believe that Air Inc does just that.

 

[SWAnnabee]

"Competition"?

"For those who have forgotten, FAPA (Air Inc's predecessor) and Air Inc exist primarily to help military pilots gain info about the civilian world. One only needs reference their publications from years past to see who they were really helping to gain employment. So all of you CFI's who sign up for the magazine are only subsidizing the competition." ENIGMA

I was not aware that those of us in the military are considered "competition". By the same token, I guess you consider a CFI and 121 guy "competition" or a corporate and 135 pilot "competition". Instead, why don't you just accept that there are SEVERAL different avenues available to ALL of us as far as gaining good flight time and experience. Personally, I've had my fill of this whole civilian vs military rivalry. And as far as "subsidizing" the "competition", you tax dollars do that just fine. But that's ok, you don't have to thank us. You have the luxury of living under the blanket of protection which I provide, then question the means in which I provide it. I prefer you just say thank you and be on you way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a rifle and stand a post. OOPS, sorry, having a Jack Nicholson flashback Anyway, good luck to all and fly safe.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Free paper on line = Captain by the end of the year!

I just thought the "end of the legacy carriers/rise of the LCCs" theme had been beaten to death. The Sun mentions US's decline and SWA's rise at BWI in almost ever airline/airport article it reports.

BTW, I live in Baltimore. And the Sun is free online every day, no matter where I am!

T1

Free paper online, we're talking Captain of the next generation 73!

 

[WhiteCloud]

Even with that, I still do not see how the numbers are 4000. Maybe I am wrong, but 4000 positions since the beginning of the year is a hefty number. That would mean about 800 or so pilots would have to be hired each month by all the carriers.

Things that make you go hmmmm...

Kathy

Kathy, They continually misrepresent what the figures mean because they have information to sell to pilot applicants. Typically, they say that 4000 jobs have been created when....perhaps....4000 pilots have been hired industry wide. Those are not necessarily new jobs that have been created or even a newly "created" job at all. Just 4000 jobs positions that have been filled. One job that is "created" or an open job (due to retirement or leaving) could account for several new hirings as one pilot leaves a job to fill one and then another pilot leaves a job to fill that one and so on. What is doesn't mean is that there are 4000 new total jobs in the industry. More accuately, it is just job "turnover" that is being misrepresented as "new jobs" or "new hirings".

 

[AA717driver]

My taxes are supporting my competition! That's it! I'm done paying taxes. Let the Marines have a bake sale to buy gas.

I've got to go, I've got to let the IRS know why I'm not paying taxes... TC

 

[enigma]

"For those who have forgotten, FAPA (Air Inc's predecessor) and Air Inc exist primarily to help military pilots gain info about the civilian world. One only needs reference their publications from years past to see who they were really helping to gain employment. So all of you CFI's who sign up for the magazine are only subsidizing the competition." ENIGMA

I was not aware that those of us in the military are considered "competition". By the same token, I guess you consider a CFI and 121 guy "competition" or a corporate and 135 pilot "competition". Instead, why don't you just accept that there are SEVERAL different avenues available to ALL of us as far as gaining good flight time and experience. Personally, I've had my fill of this whole civilian vs military rivalry. And as far as "subsidizing" the "competition", you tax dollars do that just fine. But that's ok, you don't have to thank us. You have the luxury of living under the blanket of protection which I provide, then question the means in which I provide it. I prefer you just say thank you and be on you way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a rifle and stand a post. OOPS, sorry, having a Jack Nicholson flashback Anyway, good luck to all and fly safe.

Boz. You represent yourself as a military fighter pilot. Aren’t fighter pilots the best of the best? Are you not the recipient of millions of dollars of education?



Then why do you respond based upon emotions instead of just dealing with issues? Didn’t the military teach you to make decisions based upon unemotional basis?



Now go back to what I wrote and show me where it justified your Jack Nicholson response.



The last time I checked, each individual who aspires to a professional civilian pilot career must compete for his job. Obviously, the other persons who also aspire to the job, are the COMPETITION. No slight intended, just an obvious (to me) point of fact.

My disdain is directed at FAPA, AirInc, etc, who offer false hope to the CFI level pilots when that level is not their target audience, that’s all. The disdain is also directed towards those who send their money to an organization that doesn’t help, but that’s another thread. I admit that I can’t show membership statistics from 1985, but I’ll bet that the majority of FAPA members were low level civilian pilots who dreamed about Delta, American, etc. But if you read the “who got hired” section in the back of the magazine, the new-hires were overwhelmingly military. So to my way of thinking, the CFI’s were supporting a venture (FAPA) that wasn’t helping them. Sorry that my words irked you, I certainly wasn’t trying to start a pissing contest.


For the record, I understand why military trained pilots are the best candidates for jobs flying airplanes and have no real problem with accepting that an ex-mil fighter pilot will move into the civilian world at some point above the CFI level. On the other hand, I don’t agree that a 2100 hour ex-jumpjet pilot is better qualified to gain a seat in a 757, than is a 10000 hour civilian pilot who happens to have 5000 hours in the 757. I have occasionally entered the argument, but usually only in response to some recently exited single seat guy who thinks he is entitled to going straight to the front of the line, and doesn’t mind saying so. Let me put it this way, you will get preferential treatment, that is undeniable; and as long as you don’t get arrogant about it we’ll be friends. Please accept this next statement as honest and true. You guys are my heros, I grew up almost worshipping Gabreski, Zemke, Bong, Maguire, and O’Hare. I’m honored to share the office with each and every fighter pilot with whom I’m paired.



enigma

 

[enigma]

My taxes are supporting my competition! That's it! I'm done paying taxes. Let the Marines have a bake sale to buy gas.

I've got to go, I've got to let the IRS know why I'm not paying taxes... TC

AA, nice try. See above post to boz.

enigma

 

[ch47fe]

Funny a pilot is talking about picking up a rifle.

This thread was interesting until the pilot mentions a quote of an infantry officer. Pilots are alot of things but infantry officers they are not especially Airforce and Navy pilots they simply do not need to understand infantry tactics, they drop bombs not stand watch or ride on a hummer to get shot at. Good try though.

Looking a guy in the face sending rounds his way is alot different then dropping bombs from an aircraft. I'm saying the job is not important but I love it when vets love to throw that at folks who didn't serve. You chose to do it and reaped the rewards so why try to blow up your ego with the reference to guarding everyone, grow up.

 

[scoreboard]

Ygbsm

This thread was interesting until the pilot mentions a quote of an infantry officer. Pilots are alot of things but infantry officers they are not especially Airforce and Navy pilots they simply do not need to understand infantry tactics, they drop bombs not stand watch or ride on a hummer to get shot at. Good try though.

Looking a guy in the face sending rounds his way is alot different then dropping bombs from an aircraft. I'm saying the job is not important but I love it when vets love to throw that at folks who didn't serve. You chose to do it and reaped the rewards so why try to blow up your ego with the reference to guarding everyone, grow up.

Dude your funny, he quoted a movie star, not an infantry officer. There are those of us who have done what you describe, and yes I'm USAF. Cheers

 

[Spur]

Looking a guy in the face sending rounds his way is alot different then dropping bombs from an aircraft.

Yeah, nobody shoots at airplanes....