High Altitude Sign Off

[Way2Broke]

Does a Cessna 414 that is pressurised, and certified up to 30k with 02, but only 25k without 02 require a high altitude sign off? We operate the plane at much lower altitudes than 25k, and the 02 system is never charged. Everyone already flying the plane already has the sign off, but I am curious for future hires. Thanks!

 

[charter dog]

The language used in 61.31 (g) indicates the endorsement is required in order act as PIC of a

"pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person..."

If the service ceiling or MOA of the 414 is above 25,000' per the AFM, the flight and ground training, along with the required instructor endorsements are required in order to qualify to act as PIC of that aircraft unless one of the listed exceptions applies to the pilot concerned. The actual altitude which the aircraft will be operated at appears to be immaterial to the question of required qualifications to act as PIC. Any lower maximum altitude limitations placed on the aircraft in the AFM due to factors such as adequate O2 supply would not affect the qualification requirements to act as PIC of this aircraft. I would ensure that each pilot assigned to act as PIC of this aircraft has the endorsements or qualifications required.

Best,

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Charter dog is correct, does not matter what you will fly it at, if it is certified for it, you need the endorsement.

 

[aerodriver69]

Are you flying the airplane under part 91 or 135? If you are flying under part 135 and have an approved training program and the proficiency check is conducted by the Administrator or an approved pilot check airman the endorsement is not required. See 61.31(g)(3)(i-iv).

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:
(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;
(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;
(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check conducted by the military services of the United States; or
(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.

 

[Way2Broke]

Aerodriver, we are operating the plane under 135. However we do part 91 repo legs. How would this apply to the repo legs?

Also, while the student is being given instruction in the plane how would they log it? Can they log it as PIC?

Here is another scenario, someone use to fly part 135 in a pressurized aircraft and later gos to a part 91 job in the same airplane. Would they then need the sign off?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Aerodriver, we are operating the plane under 135. However we do part 91 repo legs. How would this apply to the repo legs?

Also, while the student is being given instruction in the plane how would they log it? Can they log it as PIC?

Here is another scenario, someone use to fly part 135 in a pressurized aircraft and later gos to a part 91 job in the same airplane. Would they then need the sign off?

1. Yes for the 91 legs you now are operating under just part 91 and need to follow those such rules and need the endorsement.

2. Yes the student can log pic but can't act as pic (the whole part 1 def verses part 61)

3. The pilot needs the endorsement if they haven't met the grandfather clause in the rule (the pic before 1991 bit)

Your best bet is to just give the guy the endorsement as part of thier initial training if they don't already have it.

 

[Way2Broke]

Can a non CFI part 135 instructor give the endorsement if they have it?

 

[avbug]

1. Yes for the 91 legs you now are operating under just part 91 and need to follow those such rules and need the endorsement.

No. If you have received the training and completed the proficiency check as advertised by 14 CFR 135.31(g)(3)(i-iv), as outlined by aerodriver69, then regardless of w(h)eather or not you are operating under 135 or 91 on a particular leg...you have met the training requirements. No further training nor endorsement is required if you conduct a repositioning leg strictly in accordance with Part 91 rules.

Can a non CFI part 135 instructor give the endorsement if they have it?

Of course. The endorsement isn't required if one obtains the training as part of a 135 PIC program...so yes, an instructor who is qualified to provide the training and endorsement may do so outside 135, because it's required outside 135...not under 135.

Also, while the student is being given instruction in the plane how would they log it? Can they log it as PIC?

The log the time as PIC, the student must hold a sport pilot certificate or higher, be sole manipulator of the controls (or solo), and be rated for the airplane. An endorsement is not a rating. An endorsement is not required to log PIC time. Therefore, a student without an endorsement, but who holds multi engine airplane privileges on any pilot certificate but a student pilot certificate, may log PIC for that time spent as sole manipulator of the controls.

It's just another airplane.

 

[Way2Broke]

ANBUG let me make sure that I have this right. So a company instructor can give the endorsement to another company pilot, and that endorsement will be valid for part 91 flights. They can not however give the endorsement to a non company pilot because they are NOT A CFI.

Are you also saying that the student will never need the endorsement after they pass the check ride, even if they no longer work for the company and are operating a pressurised aircraft part 91 somewhere down the road.

I think we have the logging issues taken care of thanks.

And on a side note, AVBUG, I think you are one of the most most competent posters on the board. I value your input, and wanted to say thank you.

 

[DeathPencil]

How do you comply with 135.157 without a charged oxygen system? Do you stay below the altitudes where oxygen is required (should the pressurization fail)?