High altitude endorsement question

[IrishFlyer]

Hello,

I was asked by a friend of mine who recently got hired flying as FO on a Citation 525 if I could give him a high altitude endorsement in the CJ. He also said I could log SIC time.

I would like to do this obviously, but I do not have a Citation type, ME or MEI, high altitude endorsement and never taught ground school in high altitude ops.

Whats the right thing to do?

Cheers,

IF

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

I don't think you can log SIC in a Cessna 525 because it is rated as a sinlge-pilot aircraft. I'm sure insurance companies may require two pilots for certain operations, but will the insurance company approve you as an FO? Short of going to altitude and increasing cabin pressure to the point where your PIC will experience loss of conciousness doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. I would suggest going to the neareast Air Force Base and going through the altitude chamber and aviation physiology course. It's a 1-day course and costs between $35-$50/person. Very good training and weel worth it!! I went to Shaw AFB back in 1999 with some other guys from my flight school.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Also look at it this way. If you don't know how to swim, but a friend wanted to learn the backstroke, would you feel comfortable getting in the water and teaching him?

 

[IrishFlyer]

Also look at it this way. If you don't know how to swim, but a friend wanted to learn the backstroke, would you feel comfortable getting in the water and teaching him?

Thats is my primary concern. However I would like to get this sort of experience. I think I would forget about logging any SIC time. Wouldnt like to have to explain all the systems in a CJ at a regional interview for one or two hours logged in the bloody thing!

IF

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Hello,

I was asked by a friend of mine who recently got hired flying as FO on a Citation 525 if I could give him a high altitude endorsement in the CJ. He also said I could log SIC time.

I would like to do this obviously, but I do not have a Citation type, ME or MEI, high altitude endorsement and never taught ground school in high altitude ops.

Whats the right thing to do?

Cheers,

IF

Exactly how would you log SIC time? If he doesn't have the endorsement, how is he going to be PIC on this flight? Also if he doesn't have the endorsement that probably means he doesn't have a type rating either!

Also how on earth are you going to teach something that you have never been taught? Maybe you are leaving out some details but from what you told us, this flight would be illegal in several different ways.


Pokenheimer,

Altitude chamber is not a requirement for the High alt endorsment. You just have to have instruction in high alt ops, and do the emergency decent ops for the airplane you are in.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

I know the altitude chamber is not required, but if you ever have the opportunity to attend training in one--jump on it!! It's great. You actually got to see you chambermates become hypoxic, recognize their signs and see how they react, then you get to find out what your own symptoms are for yourself. Hypoxia affects different people in different ways and it's nice to know what I need to watch for in myself.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I agree that the chamber is the best way to go. You are correct, nothing like seeing your buds look like blubbering idiots!!! (Until you see yourself on the video looking the same!! )

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Hello,

I was asked by a friend of mine who recently got hired flying as FO on a Citation 525 if I could give him a high altitude endorsement in the CJ. He also said I could log SIC time.

I would like to do this obviously, but I do not have a Citation type, ME or MEI, high altitude endorsement and never taught ground school in high altitude ops.

Whats the right thing to do?

Cheers,

IF

I reread my first post and realized that I didn't really help you out on your problem. Just kind of asked questions!!

1. While it is legal to log SIC on a 525 in some cases, ie. the PIC only holds the two pilot Type Rating and not the SP rating, (There are two ratings avalible for the plane) You cannot log SIC in anything with two engines since you do not hold a Multi Engine Rating.

2. You also are not legal to give instruction on an endorsement that you do not hold yourself. Generally speaking (With a few exceptions) if you are legal to do it yourself, you can teach it. ie. Tailwheel endorsement etc. If you are not legal to do it you cannot teach it.

3. If you were to be the SIC, who would have been PIC? Your friend is not legal to be PIC on the plane without the Endorsement even if he holds the type. (This rule seems to be ignored in 121 on the surface since they do not bother to sign a logbook for anything in 121 land. However the operator who holds the 121 certificate has your training records on file so that covers your "endorsement") Why he would have the type and not the endoesement is a mystery since no one operates 525's on 121.

4. Your not having a MEI may or may not be an issue. I would have to look this one up, since technically you can give some instruction in a multiengine airplane without having an MEI as long as it is not for a multi rating or anything that requires multi maneuvers. But since you do not hold a Multi rating the question is moot.

So to answer your question, the correct thing to do would be to pass on this one.

Hope this helps.

 

[IrishFlyer]

So to answer your question, the correct thing to do would be to pass on this one.

Will do as it sounds like a bit to much hassle.

Thanks for your help.

IF

 

[GAcfi]

I would like a clarification on the FAR dealing with high altitude sign offs. The reg states that " no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized airplane with a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 ft. MSL unless that person has received,"

My question, does this mean one could act as PIC of a pressurized plane as long as the service ceiling or maximum operating altitude was lower than 25,000? Am I reading this wrong? Are there planes that have lower than 25,000? Or is it all pressurized planes? Also, could someone explain the difference between service ceiling and maximum operating altitude? Thanks.

 

[FracCapt]

I was asked by a friend of mine who recently got hired flying as FO on a Citation 525 if I could give him a high altitude endorsement in the CJ. He also said I could log SIC time.

I would like to do this obviously, but I do not have a Citation type, ME or MEI, high altitude endorsement and never taught ground school in high altitude ops.

First of all...if your friend is not typed in the airplane, there's no way the two of you can be flying and you log SIC.

Second...you can't legally act as SIC in an airplane you are not rated in(you have no ME rating).

Third...if your friend is typed in the airplane, he doesn't need a high altitude endorsement. The type is sufficient, because that would have been required during his type training.

Fourth....if you don't have a high altitude endorsement...YOU CAN'T GIVE ONE!

I can't help but think this post is a troll...but, you never know. People will do all kinds of crazy things in order to get that almighty jet time.

 

[avbug]

My question, does this mean one could act as PIC of a pressurized plane as long as the service ceiling or maximum operating altitude was lower than 25,000? Am I reading this wrong? Are there planes that have lower than 25,000? Or is it all pressurized planes? Also, could someone explain the difference between service ceiling and maximum operating altitude? Thanks.

One is not required by regulation to have this endorsement in order to act as PIC of a pressurized aircraft that does not have a maximum operating altitude or service ceiling that is less than 25,000'. One is also not required to have this training or endorsement in order to act as PIC of an unpressurized airplane capable of flying above 25,000.

Certain of the pressurized Cessna Centurion had a service ceiling of 25,000, not above it. 14 CFR 61.31(g) requires the endorsement for those aircraft that are certified above 25,000.

14 CFR 23.1527 defines maximum operating altitude, for certification purposes:

§ 23.1527 Maximum operating altitude.

(a) The maximum altitude up to which operation is allowed, as limited by flight, structural, powerplant, functional or equipment characteristics, must be established.

(b) A maximum operating altitude limitation of not more than 25,000 feet must be established for pressurized airplanes unless compliance with § 23.775(e) is shown.

Service ceiling is that point at which the aircraft can no longer systain a rate of climb of 100 fpm, (except for multi engine airplanes where the single engine service ceiling is a 50 fpm rate of climb, and military aircraft which define combat ceiling as 500 fpm).

 

[igneousy2]

Many of the non-jet transports have service ceilings right at 25,000' because many certification requirements (aircraft type certifications) kick in at this altitude. Dash-8 and the Saab 340 are two that I know for sure have service ceilings at 25k.