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Fins,

When you go to the car dealership, do you take the first offer? Do you? You don't ask for incentives, or special deals? We all know that Delta is hurting, but we haven't seen the cuts for any of the other groups there, including management cuts. You can bet that management is incentivized to reduce labor expenses in general - the DAL pilots lose while DAL management gains.... It's classic.

In the end, all labor groups (including mangement) must invest in the future with wage reductions - not just the pilots.... ASA pilots have a lot to gain if Delta remains healthy. You don't want AirTran to set the salary bar, do you?

I am willing to bet that if DAL files for Chap 11, both Comair and ASA will get revised pilot contracts that make MESA's look generous... I doubt that would happen but there is always a chance...
 
Heavy Set said:
Fins,

When you go to the car dealership, do you take the first offer? Do you? You don't ask for incentives, or special deals? We all know that Delta is hurting, but we haven't seen the cuts for any of the other groups there, including management cuts. You can bet that management is incentivized to reduce labor expenses in general - the DAL pilots lose while DAL management gains.... It's classic.

In the end, all labor groups (including mangement) must invest in the future with wage reductions - not just the pilots.... ASA pilots have a lot to gain if Delta remains healthy. You don't want AirTran to set the salary bar, do you?


The only problem is that all other employee groups have dramatically improved their productivity while the pilots have not. They haven't taken big paycuts, but the productivity improvements can offset the W-2 cuts. Not to mention the other employees have had their pay frozen for the past few years, while the pilots have gotten raises. So at this point, it's time for the pilots to come to the table.

Don't get me wrong, after the pilots take cuts, I expect all other groups will take further cuts. But until an agreement is done with the pilots, DL management knows that it's a waste of time to take from the rest of the employees.

It's true that you don't take the first offer the car dealer offers. But if you walk into the BMW dealer and offered $2000 for a new BMW, would the dealer even bother talking to you? Right now, the 9% DALPA is offering is so ridiculous that DL management doesn't even know how to negotiate with it. Look at the UAL contract, how is DL supposed to stay competitive with a company that has a contract like that?

Honestly, I'm starting to believe that both DL management and DALPA are both just playing games with the hope that USAirways goes under in the interim.
 
Medflyer,

It really seems you have something against Delta pilots. As far as productivity enhancements, they apparently have agreed to increase the cap by a certain amount- but tied in with eventual recalls for their furloughees. That again would give the company instant productivity increases, with the recalls probably tied to future retirements. And as far as the 9% goes, you-- along with the media-- seem to forget that along with the 9%, the offer includes the 4.5% raise (which really equals 13.5% total---not 9% like you incorrectly claimed)---with their first offer. It's not their final offer.

As far as the other employees and productivity, I don't fly for Delta and I do not know. My Delta friends say the flight attendants were given a slight pay cut and now can pick up extra trips, but most are so old (geriatrics) that they can't take extra trips, and that has led to recalling 200 furloughed flight attendants. These employee, not surprisingly, are not spring chickens either, since they furloghed all of the younger, perkier ones.

The other labor groups should NOT take pay cuts AFTER the pilots - all labor groups (including the fat-cat managers who are incentivized to cut costs) should SHARE in the cost-cutting responsibilities - including all regional employees at Comair and ASA (but not as much as mainline). Management is trying to avoid further unionization at Delta and is pitting labor groups against each other (portraying the pilots as super-greedy when Management approved the pilot contract a few years back). I thought Leo was a bit greedy with his $13 million contract and his off-shore pension deals... Didn't he get all of his money ($13 million) in his contract? Grinstein approved Leo's package - right?

All labor groups must invest in Delta's future, not just the one union...
 
Heavy Set :

Ok so, if you cut ASA and Comair employees by 24% it would equal less than 1% of the pay disparity between American and Delta mainline - what is your point? Is this just a moral victory for the Delta MEC? If so, so what?

And which "fat cat" managers are you making reference to? Please post names and compensation.

~~~^~~~
 
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Fins,

C'mon. Fred Reid made more that $1 million (no bonus allowed) and CFO Michelle Burns made north of $1 million with her 8% "voluntary" pay cut.

Note that I said that some "investment" was required from ALL Delta employees - and more at mainline than at the regionals. It is not fair to single out one employee group - that doesn't build unity. Do you think the bankruptcy judge will overlook the regional pilot pay in a bankruptcy scenario? I doubt it. But you think he should.... Time to wake up and smell the coffee - your pay (both ASA and Comair) will be compared to your peers (including MESA). Your pay would be in jeopardy too...
 
Here is food for thought Gen. Lee

The beginning of the end in the airline wars
British General Cornwallis ordered the band to play The World Turned Upside Down when he surrendered to George Washington after the Battle of Yorktown in 1781. Neither of them knew it for sure at that moment, but the Revolutionary War was essentially over.
I think it may be time to cue the band again. A few heartfelt choruses of The World Turned Upside Down would be the perfect soundtrack for last week's developments in the airline world. The Big Six may not fully understand it, but it's over for them.

In case you've been too busy trying to keep track of how many holiday flights were canceled for security reasons, let me offer you a quick recap of this week's startling events:

Delta Air Lines cut mainline jet capacity at its Salt Lake City hub by 17% on Thursday. That's on top of a 20% cut that Delta has engineered in the last four years at Salt Lake City. And it comes just a few weeks before Delta further downsizes its now shriveled hub at Dallas/Fort Worth.

Last Thursday, Northwest Airlines cut flights by about 18% at its Memphis hub. Where once there were 242 daily flights, there are now just 198. At its other hubs, Mesaba, a Northwest Airlink commuter carrier, narrowly averted a strike by its pilots on Saturday.

Last Wednesday, American Airlines rolled out a fly-two-get-one-free promotion on the same day that JetBlue Airways launched its first flights from Boston to Florida, Denver and Long Beach, California. American, a big player in Boston, is desperate to staunch JetBlue's growth, especially after failing to run JetBlue off its transcontinental routes from New York/Kennedy. Hence the free-ticket bribe, which only applies on American routes from New York or Boston to Florida and California.

And over at US Airways, chief executive David Siegel cancelled his traveling "give me salvation" show after being told by his employees that they have no more givebacks to give the airline's management. And word leaked out that the carrier, which is hemorrhaging $1 million a day after a trip through the bankruptcy courts, nearly $1 billion in federal loan guarantees and two rounds of employee concessions, has hired Morgan Stanley to find buyers for its few remaining assets.

Meanwhile, the alternate carriers were making stunning inroads on the battlefield.

Besides JetBlue's advance into Boston this week, it also announced the March launch of nonstop flights between New York and Sacramento, California. And it even revealed plans to add free XM satellite-radio and pay-per-view video programming to its in-flight live-television service.

AirTran, which has been munching Delta's lunch at their shared Atlanta hub, was preparing for its expansion at Dallas/Fort Worth, where it will be moving to four gates in Terminal B. It also announced it would add XM radio service on flights. Southwest is adding a slew of new, nonstop routes in the next two weeks and is gearing up for its May assault on US Airways' Philadelphia hub. America West will add flights to six cities at its Las Vegas hub beginning March 1. And Frontier will be launching service to three new cities from its Denver hub and beginning point-to-point flights from Los Angeles.

Like I said, fellow travelers, time to strike up the band and play The World Turned Upside Down. And I didn't even mention Ted, United's foray into low-fare service that launches next month. After all, why bother talking about another attempt at a low-fare airline from a Big Six carrier when the low-fare start-up isn't even well thought out enough to consistently offer low fares?

This startling turn of events — the big, powerful empires of the Big Six being humbled by gnats who've turned themselves into 800-pound guerillas — should come as no surprise.

Ever since Northwest stranded thousands of travelers on the snowbound runways of Detroit in January of 1999, average travelers have begun to understand that the alternate carriers offer more and charge less than the Big Six. Ever since the United Airlines meltdown in the summer of 2000, frequent fliers have begun to realize they can't count on the Big Six to deliver what they promise. Ever since 9/11, after we've given the Big Six billions of tax dollars only to watch them fritter it away on egregious executive compensation packages and dishonored business models, we've begun to feel that it is over for them.

And last week, finally, we could all see that the airline world has turned upside down. Soon we'll be free of their big carriers' convoluted fare structures, overpaid management and arrogant assumption that business travelers will never fight back against rapacious fares and repulsive service.

The next few years will be tricky. Like the remnants of the British Army after Yorktown, the Big Six won't go away right away. There might even be another battle or two to fight before we're free of them.

But we know now that the Revolution has been successful; the airline world has turned upside down.

Read previous columns

Joe Brancatelli is editor and publisher of JoeSentMe.com, a Web site for business travelers. He is also the former executive editor of Frequent Flyer magazine, travel advisor of Travel Holiday and contributing editor to Travel + Leisure. He can be reached at [email protected].
 
F9driver,

How was today's golf game? Not good, huh? I guess you didn't read anything about our large JFK expansion starting in April to fight Jetblue, and the $300 million we are spending over 6 years to fix the terminals and advertise? You missed that one. Oh yeah, and those flights that we canceled in SLC were re-distributed (we didn't park anymore airplanes)--we actually added flights elsewhere--primarily extra nonstops to the CO/NW hubs, and also Chicago ORD from SLC. I guess you missed today's article in USAToday about Delta planning on adding more flights to Central America and South America? (We announced last week that we were adding back our daily 767-300ER service to Buenos Aires from ATL in November) Looks like you missed that too. What about all of the new INTL routes were are adding on May 1st? (new nonstops to AMS and FCO--ROME--from CVG and extra flights per week from ATL to MUC and LGW, along with extra weekly flights to Athens from JFK this Summer--due to being the only US carrier that flies there for the Olympics) We are also bringing back 10 airplanes out of the desert to compete. You must have been at the driving range when that one came out. Our DFW flights have recently been upgraded to larger aircraft---we used to have mainly MD88s to ATL, and now most of them are 757s or 737-800s. (you can see it in the OAG)

So, how are the LCC's doing? Jetblue sure has been downgraded with the news that AA and DL are beginning to compete. How about your Frontier? Looks like TED matched your fares. Hmmmm. Apparently America West has been having trouble filling their transcon planes (according to an AWA employee on Airliners.net--with a whopping 39% load factor) This Summer will be interesting, and along with some pay cuts there will be better revenue for the big 6 carriers, and the INTL flights will be full, with the INTL carriers hurting because of the security scares. That will help us too.

Take it easy and don't wrench your back with that driver---the key is stretching first---easy swings......

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Take it easy General

Don't get panicky General! I was going to publish another article backing this one but "YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT." lol Maybe we could get a head start on the lawn mowing service.... partner. ggg.
Just one other little gem......I have a good friend with Pan Am who never sweated a potential liquidation because he was on the B-747 with a seniority number below #400. He always thought he would be included in any route sale. Lo and behold, UAL took pilots out of seniority on the L-1011 and very few....400 I believe, for the whole Pacific. DAL along with AMR scammed Plaskett for the rest of the routes. To make a long story short, he mismanaged his "B" fund and is driving a shuttle bus to LAX from Ventura Cty. as we speak......a true story but not a very funny one.
 
F9driver,

I CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH!! How's that?

Ever heard of the "Dirty thirty" at Pan Am? They were 30 senior 747 pilots who "got wind" of the situation at Delta and Pan Am, and quickly bid down to the 727 Shuttle as Captains and kicked 30 guys from those seats. Then, when the transactions took place, they immediately went to Delta and bid 767-300ER Capt at JFK. Nice. I think there are "rats" at every airline---people only looking out for themselves. Your friend at Pan Am thought he was ok, and he wasn't listening to the "wind" and rumors. You can't just sit back and think things will be ok---you need to be proactive. I am obviously that type of guy, wouldn't you agree?? That Pan Am deal really $ucked for a lot of people, and we have all learned from it. The lawn mowing business hopefully will be somewhere where there is green grass all year round---like FL or CA---you choose......We'll set it up....

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Quick question about what the negotiations by the pilots are including- mostly curious about whether or not they are including something about getting back what they gave if or when things turn around and the profits come back. I am very uniformed about this, but I think this is a huge point in keeping away from the race to the bottom. DALPA has the financial gurus who could probably help to include contractual language to ensure "cooked" books don't slow the return to the original or better pay. Do any of the other pilot groups that took concessions include a return to previous wages when things turned around? It took decades to get to where the pay was and I hate to think how long it will take to get it back without some sort of return to pay clauses in the concessions.
 
Hey...

Heavy Set said:
I am willing to bet that if DAL files for Chap 11, both Comair and ASA will get revised pilot contracts that make MESA's look generous...

It could happen. Grinstein has said that bankruptcy is not
his first choice in aligning Delta with the competition. (The real competition that is: Southwest, jetBlue, American, United, Continental and AirTran not the management/ALPA made competition: mainline, CMR, ASA, Skywest, ACA, Mesa, Mesaba, Chautauqua).

But there is some understandable angst at ASA and Comair that if management does force bankruptcy to get control of the mainline contract, the pilot agreements at ASA and Comair are also put at risk even though our "companies" are still profitable.

It all comes back to the RJDC issue of ALPA's duty of fair representation doesn't it? The Delta MEC, who we did not elect and does not represent us, may trigger consequences on our property that gut our contracts in bankruptcy court.

Our dues dollars at work.
 
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