Hey General

[Flying Freddie]

Not trying to flame(yet), but it sounds like your new CEO is trying to "swan" song into the past. What is your view on this?

 

[General Lee]

Well, it is unfortunate that he seems to be going down the same path as the others, instead of a fresh approach. We all know that we should take paycuts, and we are willing to do so, but not be "Taken" in the process, and we have seen the books and have hired professionals (investment bankers and 2 30 year plus aviation economists) to make sure we do enough to actually help. We are not stupid. We also don't want to ruin our livelyhood. We are actually fighting for this profession and the higher wages. But, we know there are limitations, especially with a large gap between us and the next guy. So, most of us agree that 20% or so would PROBABLY be acceptable (I am not a negotiator and have not done polling---other than some Captains and FOs in the ATL lounge)---and some other beanies also like a perdiem cut of some sort, and maybe picking up some extra medical costs etc... We are not oblivious to the current situation. But, when managment comes along and says "30% and this and that", and we say no way, and then they call us back and say "hey, we want to negotiate again" and then we come back to the table and they essentially request the same 30% etc....then this gets tiresome. I haven't heard anything about other cost cuts---besides the small cut given by the flight attendants (even though there have been some medical cost increases for some of the other groups), and nothing about cuts for mechanics, ground people, and management types....Don't we all have a stake in this outfit? Give me a break. We are willing to give, just not the kitchen sink along with everything else. Also, this is an investment in the future of Delta----let's make that clear.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flying Freddie]

Thanks for the reply. Of course the Big guys will get a bonus if you take the cut. Make sure that they pay for their errors.

 

[lowecur]

Not smart

Thanks for the reply. Of course the Big guys will get a bonus if you take the cut. Make sure that they pay for their errors.

The big guys make their money on stock options. It's fair to say that DL management wants the whole 30 or nothing. This will set them up for chapt 11 at some point in the future, making the existing stock worthless. With some of the moves they've made recently (new terminal in JFK & route changes), this could expediate the move to 11. Once DL management gets all it wants, it expects to see the new issue stock price soar along with their new stock options.

There's just one problem with that scenerio. Time is not on the side of DL. Sorry to hear management wouldn't at least offer something different.

 

[General Lee]

I hope we all don't get major cuts in Chap 11, and that would involve a leadership change too (the banks would be incharge). I don't think they want that, so hopefully they will negotiate for real. I know that the future is "dark" and know one knows what will happen----but to tell us that we need huge cuts now to protect us from something that hasn't happened in the future, and then state these cuts better be "long term" without managment getting long term cuts either, doesn't make sense. Our MEC has the numbers, is watching closely, and will represent us better than mangement has done so far. I hope they do come up with a deal, but it will have to be fair and everyone (including managment) will participate.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Networ-King]

Sounds like the new CEO is the same OLD CEO. These XXXXX are spawned from the same corrupt gene pool.

Hey SWA FO....... I need a LOR or SWA any thoughts



January 29, 2004

Dear Fellow Pilot:

Delta's financial results continue to cause concern. The fourth quarter
2003 results have generated many questions from line pilots. The
company lost $207 million excluding unusual items and continues to single out
"pilot costs" as key in helping Delta return to profitability. While we
believe that pilot costs did not create the situation, your union came
to the conclusion last spring that Delta needed relief, and we have
been attempting to negotiate with management ever since.

An agreement by now would have provided the least risk to the pilot
group and company, but management has sent mixed messages since this
process began. Senior Delta officials talk publicly about a pilot deal
being their "highest priority." However, since October the company has not
materially altered their economic package, which proposes huge pilot
concessions with potential returns on our investment that are almost
insignificant. Additionally, management took weeks to provide data the
Negotiating Committee requested to aid in our analysis. In short,
management's actions at the negotiating table have been inconsistent with
their quotes in newspapers.

Since our efforts to help the company so far have borne no fruit, you
should prepare for the likely scenario that the union will need to begin
focusing on Section 6 negotiations. This is a disappointing development
considering that we recognize Delta needs our assistance to return to
profitability and have devoted an enormous amount of time, resources and
dues money to the mid contract talks.

Now we are hearing airline analysts state that Delta is subtly warning
of the possibility of bankruptcy and that "everything rests on a labor
deal" with the pilots. While no one can predict what path the company
will choose, I strongly encourage you to start a contingency fund and
begin financially preparing for the future. Planning for all possible
situations should help provide you with peace of mind if we enter into
the Section 6 process or management chooses to pursue some other course
of action.

Until today's proposal from management, I was hopeful that we could
reach a settlement. Although optimism is fading, your union remains open
to reaching a mid contract agreement. If we must go forward into
Section 6, the risks increase both to the pilot group and Delta Air Lines.
I assure you that your union is prepared for any eventuality.

Fraternally,


Capt. John Malone
Delta MEC Chairman


Hope these guys stick to their guns........... don't need another repeat of USAIR.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Please stay tuned for this important (yeah right!) message from our sponsor:


You guys already know this but I feel like posting it anyway.

Your ex-GM boss will use every play in the union busting playbook. That's why he took the job. Has anyone seen his contract? Is it full of stock options or a cash payout when he leaves? I'm betting it's mostly cash.

I think he will make Delta pilots look like self-centered, money hungry workers wanting to kill the company. I don't believe that to be so, but the public will buy it. All it takes is time and false news reports.

"Negotiation" will only occur when the CEO feels labor wants to give until it hurts.


Now back to our regularly scheduled, ever postive SWA poolies....

 

[General Lee]

Flyboeingjets,

Yes, but we (Dalpa) actually used the media today, stating "We hope that the company wants to negotiate with us, but our hopes are FADING, but the door is still open...." The company had no comment. We finally used the media to our advantage, and we know we still have $3 billion in cash and a good year ahead of us with a better economy. We still have time on our side (for awhile)....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[lowecur]

General

All the talk seems centered around wage concessions, but obviously work rules play a major role in all this. If DALPA offered the same work rules as SWAPA, and offered to reduce payroll by 20%, would that do the trick?

Productivity is a large part of the CASM success over the years for SWA. I'm not privy to the renegotiated work rules at AMR, but are they significantly different than prior?

The other thought is DAL is not set up to turn around a flight in 30-45 minutes because of their large hub/spoke network. So it's possible any workrule changes would be in vain. Also, if substantial work rule changes could be affected, that would mean less recalls of furloughs. This also would not sit well with DALPA.

 

[race#53]

Re: General

All the talk seems centered around wage concessions, but obviously work rules play a major role in all this. If DALPA offered the same work rules as SWAPA, and offered to reduce payroll by 20%, would that do the trick?

Productivity is a large part of the CASM success over the years for SWA. I'm not privy to the renegotiated work rules at AMR, but are they significantly different than prior?

The other thought is DAL is not set up to turn around a flight in 30-45 minutes because of their large hub/spoke network. So it's possible any workrule changes would be in vain. Also, if substantial work rule changes could be affected, that would mean less recalls of furloughs. This also would not sit well with DALPA.

UAL prev posted:

6 year contract
30% paycut (from 29%)
no pay raise for another 3 years, then 1.5% per yr
pension reduced (1.35 multiplier, equates to about 35% of salary)
no furlough protection (can furlough as needed)
fly up to 89 hours (95 hours for LCO)
Minimun pay reduced to 65
20% medical contribution
747 pay now reduced to 777 pay (with 30% cut)
Airbus pay reduced to 737 pay
No RJ limits at Express
70 seat RJs allowed at Express
No domicile protection, company can base pilots anywhere including International. (LHR / EGLL), United Kingdom">LHR and NRT / RJAA), Japan">NRT very much possible)
LCO (low cost operation) agreement, see above
No first class Deadhead (FF favorite subject)
Vacation override eliminated (media favorite)
3 year equipment freeze (up to 4.5 on LCO)

 

[General Lee]

Lowecur,

You are right about productivity being different between Southwest and Delta, primarily because of the hub system. Most of the Southwest flights are in one direction, stopping for 20 minutes and then continuing on, whereas the hub system cannot do that really because people have to make their connections. We also have different types of flying, like INTL, and you can't really squeeze any more productivity out of a pilot after a 10 hour flight from Frankfurt.... AA did up their cap of hours flown and originally announced a lot of furloughs, but has backed off on about 1300 of those intended furloughs, seeing that they need to compete. I would have to take a good look at the difference in our fleets and future plans to see if that would work---because it seems like AA has furloughed mainly their bad purchase of TWA, which had about the same number of pilots as they have currently furloughed. And look at what has happened to their St. Louis hub.

The main thing Delta needs right now is a break from current wages, and we are probably willing (I am not a negotiator) to give around 20% (15% straight plus the 4.5% May raise) to them now, which would be huge, and some other beanies like a per diem cut etc... That would give them extra fuel right now to try to get refinancing for the debt, or to fund some growth(?). Most of the guys I talk to in the ATL lounge would agree to that. But, it seems like management wants more, and we haven't really heard much about what the other groups are going to give (or have taken from them since they don't have a union or contract). Right now it is really centered on Pilot cuts.

I hope it works out, and they are playing hardball right now. We shall see, but we are willing to talk, according to Malone's letter.
Gotta fly now--it is Superbowl weekend of course!! (you think I would have it off??)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

So, most of us agree that 20% or so would PROBABLY be acceptable (I am not a negotiator and have not done polling---other than some Captains and FOs in the ATL lounge)---and some other beanies also like a perdiem cut of some sort, and maybe picking up some extra medical costs etc... We are not oblivious to the current situation. But, when managment comes along and says "30% and this and that", and we say no way, and then they call us back and say "hey, we want to negotiate again" and then we come back to the table and they essentially request the same 30% etc....then this gets tiresome. I haven't heard anything about other cost cuts---besides the small cut given by the flight attendants (even though there have been some medical cost increases for some of the other groups), and nothing about cuts for mechanics, ground people, and management types....Don't we all have a stake in this outfit?

Bye Bye--General Lee

(1) You make 62% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly compensated pilots on planet Earth. You express frustration that Delta asked for a 30% cut, then came back and asked for a 30% cut.

These losses are a lot like credit card debt. The longer you take to pay, the more it will cost. I'm guessing that later in the year management will return to the table asking for a 35 to 40% cut, or parity with American.

(2) When Mechanics ( 4% under the industry average ) and Reservationists (paid at the industry average, but 16% more productive) already make industry average wages, why should they be cut? You only justification seems to be that they are not unionized - well they can organize and then what?

(3) Managers, Mechanics, Rampers and everyone else at the airline is getting paid industry standard wages, or below. That means we can change jobs and we have nothing to lose. Any other airline I might get hired at would pay me more in my second year than I will ever make at ASA. We have no retirement and nothing tying us to these jobs - so if you had your way and our pay was cut, those of us who can, will simply leave and find work elsewhere management knows this.

(4) What justification do you have for believing it is up to everyone else at the company to subsidize your pay?

~~~^~~~

 

[nhbizz]

Fins,
Where do you come up with this drivel? There are plenty of people on this board and in the industry that look to us not to crumble for no reason. we have hired experts with more exerience on matters like these in their little finger than you have in your whole body. We have offered up plenty to the company, they have decided not to take it. That is not our fault. We do not ask for others to subsidize our wages. We know that all parties involved need to share in the recovery of Delta. That may include you to. Because, I can bet when we file CH11, you will lose to.

 

[wms]

I'm not usually on the same side of the fence as Fins but agree that concessions should come first from the group that is paid the most above industry standard. This includes DAL mgmt. This also should be done along with changes in business that will make DAL more competitive. DAL mgmt obviously cares more about their personal interests than the well-being of the company. DALPA has the opportunity to affect the changes necessary as part of their counter proposal. That would include the continuation of Song long enough to see if it will actually work as well as a DCI WO merger that would do more to cut costs than all other DCI concessions combined.

 

[DCitrus9]

Delta needs to uphold the industry standard, not race to the bottom. If they take huge pay cuts then all other pilots will feel downward pressure on their pay also. Fins and wms, you seem to have bought the management drivel hook, line, and sinker. While there may be economic difficulties, it is not the pilot's fault. Nor is it their sole responsibilty to shoulder the repair bill. If you choose to sell yourself cheaply, so be it, but do not criticize others for attempting to keep ALL pilot pay at a respectable level.

 

[wms]

I'm not talking huge pay cuts or a race to the bottom. I don't support pay cuts at all. And I'm certainly not saying paycuts are the cure-all. Mgmt should show their worth by turning a company around instead of sucking the life from it, but they are probably incapable of turning a company around through solid mgmt skills. However, if some cuts are coming they should start with those who are above industry standard, not those who already are at or below it as some would have it. The downward spiral started elsewhere and now the Delta pilots are ones feeling the pressure. If you read my previous posts here and elsewhere you'll see I'm not happy with the way DAL/DCI mgmts have been dealing with the issues that face our company. The Delta pilots, especially the 1060 have my support, and I hope something is worked out that will benefit all parties.

 

[Heavy Set]

Fins wants the Delta pilots to make less so he can ensure his job and current pay at ASA. Delta does have a higher 777 Capt rate than AA and UA, but only has 8 777s compared to the 35 at AA and 45 at UA. It is much harder to attain 777 Capt at Delta than the others. He never says anything about Delta management taking paycuts (because he wants to be in management himself someday). The mechanics and ground people at Delta do make industry standard pay, but Delta is having problems, and they must also share the burden and take some paycuts to help save their own interests. To say otherwise is only promoting non-unionism, and that is exactly what management wants---no more unions. Fins doesn't care, he is self centered. Also, Delta has the cash and I can't see Delta management allowing Delta to go into bankruptcy just because of the pilots, that would show poor managment skills and lack of negotiating skills. I bet they will come to an agreement eventually. That guy Grinstein should now be called "Grinchstein."

And WMS, I think the Delta guys are willing to give up some pay, just not something ridiculous like 30% while everyone else takes very small cuts or nothing at all (like most of Delta Managment). Who said they wouldn't take any paycuts? It sounds like Dalpa was willing to give some back.

 

[wms]

Delta is in pretty good shape, in spite of what mgmt says, and the economy is improving. There is no reason for anyone to be paid below industry standard, union or not, unless mgmt takes the cuts first. That won't happen even in Ch 11, because mgmt doesn't have DALs best interest at heart. I support DALPA keeping the bar higher than the current standard even if they do compromise on some sort of concession.

 

[Heavy Set]

A Delta pilot friend told me that they have close to $2.9 billion in cash, and in a good economy with a busy spring and summer coming, time will be on their side for awhile. The savings from that pension reform bill will give them even more of a pad, and maybe they will come to an agreement sometime this year. (probably before that May pay raise) I don't think there are many Delta pilots who believe they won't have to take a paycut. They just have to agree on the number, and the management number may have to include paycuts from other employee groups, including their own! I bet they will do that eventually, but expect hardball tactics in the meantime.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins wants the Delta pilots to make less so he can ensure his job and current pay at ASA. Delta does have a higher 777 Capt rate than AA and UA, but only has 8 777s compared to the 35 at AA and 45 at UA. It is much harder to attain 777 Capt at Delta than the others. He never says anything about Delta management taking paycuts (because he wants to be in management himself someday).

Fins doesn't care, he is self centered.

You don't know me and you don't know what you are talking about. But it is not about me, it is about our industry and ALPA destroying itself through predatory bargaining that seeks to harm other ALPA members.

There is no way I want to go into management. Trying to run an airline is a horrible job I would not wish on my worst enemy and for another thing pilots make a heck of a lot more money But you wont be a part of this industry if you drive DAL into the dirt.

The selfish part of me says go ahead and choke that golden goose, heck go for Section 6 negotiations and kill Delta off - AirTran would get a windfall and my guess is that AirTran would be happy to hire a bunch of current glass cockpit guys with thousands of hours of PIC and a good attitude from ASA.

Us ASA pilots don't have much to loose, so what ever happens, we will be better off.

~~~^~~~