Hey Chq

[nonstop]

I disagree with the second line about SCABS. It is just inappropriate.

On the first part, would XJT be caving or accepting the reality that we are in the worst airline negotiating environment in history? I dont like it anymore than you do by the way.

Sam

They'd be caving. MESA caved, CHQ caved. Quite frankly, Comair caved.

"RJ" rates are GROSSLY low. DISGUSTINGLY low. A union job which requires more education, responsibility and specialized skill than any other union job, but paid the least. How can you not call their rates low? It's amazing how effective the airline management propanda machine is. You'd think folks smart enough to command a jet could see through it, but we're not exactly drawing the cream of the crop these days now are we?

Everyone's so afraid of losing their job because of the senoirty system these companies have built, they're willing to accept a fraction of the pay they're entitled to simply retain longevity. It's quite sad.

For the record, I have longevity, and I'd happily price myself out of a job. It's called principal. If only more of us would get on the same page we could actually make this a profession worth persuing again.

And no I don't have a sugar moma, I don't have a second career (at the moment). But I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure know what I'm worth, and it sure as hell is more than the sky cap.

 

[BoilerUP]

They'd be caving. MESA caved, CHQ caved. Quite frankly, Comair caved.

"RJ" rates are GROSSLY low. DISGUSTINGLY low. A union job which requires more education, responsibility and specialized skill than any other union job, but paid the least. How can you not call their rates low? It's amazing how effective the airline management propanda machine is. You'd think folks smart enough to command a jet could see through it, but we're not exactly drawing the cream of the crop these days now are we?

Everyone's so afraid of losing their job because of the senoirty system these companies have built, they're willing to accept a fraction of the pay they're entitled to simply retain longevity. It's quite sad.

For the record, I have longevity, and I'd happily price myself out of a job. It's called principal. If only more of us would get on the same page we could actually make this a profession worth persuing again.

And no I don't have a sugar moma, I don't have a second career (at the moment). But I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure know what I'm worth, and it sure as hell is more than the sky cap.

I agree that current RJ pay rates are too low, across the spectrum. That being said, how much do you think you are worth as an RJ captain? Do you deserve AA F100 pay? NW DC9 pay? Horizon CR7 pay? How high? And this is not a flamebait, I'm genuinely interested in knowing exactly how much you think a 50 seat CA and FO are worth, especially in the current economic and aviation environment.

If you will settle for nothing less than Comair plus 10+ percent, then I admire your determination. I, and the whole world for that matter, will see just what happens when management pushes and XJTALPA shoves back.

Like I said in my earlier post, good luck with your negotiations. You and your group are only worth what you negotiate, and not a penny more.

 

[aewanabe]

They're all dying to pick up more flying. They try to pretend like they encourage XJT on their new contract, meanwhile they're just chompin at the bit to subsidize CAL flying. Any flying. Growth=Bliss right?

Appartently the majority of them are too short sighted (polite way to say STUPID) to understand that their rolling over on their contracts is bad for the profession. Despite the fact they may see an immediate increase in their paycheck due to growth.

Oh, yah, you'll hear them squeal "Republic!" this and that... we all risk being under bid, eminent or not. They've fu<ked this profession over anyway you slice it. We've yet to see if XJT caves. I hope they don't.

It's time to redefine the word SCAB. Let's just reference MESA, CHQ and the like.

Jeez, a@@hole. Lemme guess... you're one of those guys who got hired in 2000-2001 with 600 hours and was promised a 1-year upgrade on the Brasilia, and didn't get it....

"Any flying. Growth = bliss, right?" I have a couple good friends who are pilots for CAL mainline, NOT former Coex. Guess what they were saying in 2000-2001 watching you guys grow exponentially? Lots of mid-size cities that used to support 73s and DC9s with nothing but XRs in them now. Oh yeah, but that's different when it's you growing, huh?

BTW I did see an immediate increase in my paycheck when we signed the new contract. Did I suddenly magically upgrade? No, I'm still in the right seat. Was there an immediate order for 200 E170s? Nope. Wait a minute, how could I possibly be making more money? Oops, that's right, the contract provided more money and better work rules for my CURRENT seat and longevity. Dang, lowered the bar again. BTW I'm one of those who've said repeatedly I don't think our payrates are good enough....

Speaking of scope, and Republic... all flying done by Republic will be with pilots on MY seniority list. Unfortunately some of my desired payraise undoubtedly funded that. WTF did you guys do when your management wanted two non-union companies to increase flying with aircraft types that used to be yours? While you had people on the street? The bad-ass Express Jet dudes said "hell no, not till all our brothers and sisters are back to work. You wanna fly Brasilias and more 1900s, bring 'em back here!" Oh wait a minute, no you didn't. At least you negotiated props-for-jobs at those "low-paid, sell-out, non-union carriers".

And finally, a question neither you or Skootertrash have tried to answer: Where are you getting that ANYONE at CHQ has said "yeah, let's take less money for growth"? Every time you want an excuse to get your thong in a knot you roll out that tired line, with nothing to back it up. And every time one of us calls you on it, you throw out the SCAB word which is complete and utter BS. The only SCABs around here are the ones where that thong is chafing your nuts. You should really take it off and put it back in your mom's panty drawer.

 

[Afixedwing]

skooter and nonstop remind me of islamic terrorists, they're not going to be happy until we quit our jobs and convert to expressjet.

idiots

 

[bogberto]

Mesa caved? Really? Glad you were working here during negotiations because I slept throught the entire process.

Let's see, our heroes at Freedom had agreed to work for slight pennies more than our old contract. Most of the CRJ Training department was kindly told "Have a job at Freedom or there's the door." US Airways was in bankruptcy and America West had enough cash to make it through lunch. Dangit if we didn't have all the room in the world to continue informational picketing for 3 years until we were all unemployed.

Tell ya what, my ALPA brother, I wish you all the luck in the world getting what we all deserve to be paid to fly ex-mainline routes. You codeshare with an airline that's not in the poor house. Raise the bar, hold the line, stick it to the man. Shut the place down if they don't agree to pay you enough, right?

Show us the way, my ALPA brethren. Show us the way.

 

[threegreen123]

I agree that current RJ pay rates are too low, across the spectrum. That being said, how much do you think you are worth as an RJ captain? Do you deserve AA F100 pay? NW DC9 pay? Horizon CR7 pay? How high? And this is not a flamebait, I'm genuinely interested in knowing exactly how much you think a 50 seat CA and FO are worth, especially in the current economic and aviation environment.

If you will settle for nothing less than Comair plus 10+ percent, then I admire your determination. I, and the whole world for that matter, will see just what happens when management pushes and XJTALPA shoves back.

Like I said in my earlier post, good luck with your negotiations. You and your group are only worth what you negotiate, and not a penny more.

Yeah, this is my question...what is a 50 seat CA and FO worth? What would be an acceptable number for you?

See thats one problem...how much is enough money? What will make you happy finally? The fact is there is no right number. You give Pilot X $100,000 a year and its not enough, cause he wants a mercedes, a boat, his 3 kids want Yankees season tickets and his wife wants a house next to Derek Jeter. He still lives paycheck to paycheck. You give Pilot B $100,000, who is single, no kids, and doesn't mind living in a modest house, he is doing well. See...everyone is in different situations. For me, its easy to live off $32,000 a year. Sure, I live in a modest place, drive a modest car, shop for groceries on sale, and am single with no kids. Its not as easy as being a millionaire, but its not a bad life. In fact, I am saving and investing money on that. But, to another guy, its terrible pay. So...whats the magic number guys!? Captains that make twice what I make are investing zero and living paycheck to paycheck. So, I am interested to see where people want to draw the salary line.

 

[wildcat]

Please, someone, answer the question: How much is a 50-seat captain worth? What's the top rate and what's the bottom rate? I'm curious as a student of economics, how much a captain is worth bearing in mind supply should meet demand -- meaning, in this industry, at this time, it's not feasible for an airline to pay the bottom guys $100,000/yr.

 

[bogberto]

Ask the passengers what they're willing to pay us per hour. Tell them each that we'll take $5.00 from each of them per flight hour. They'd agree. Can you imagine the raise?!

 

[Sam Fisher]

They'd be caving. MESA caved, CHQ caved. Quite frankly, Comair caved.

"RJ" rates are GROSSLY low. DISGUSTINGLY low. A union job which requires more education, responsibility and specialized skill than any other union job, but paid the least. How can you not call their rates low? It's amazing how effective the airline management propanda machine is. You'd think folks smart enough to command a jet could see through it, but we're not exactly drawing the cream of the crop these days now are we?

Everyone's so afraid of losing their job because of the senoirty system these companies have built, they're willing to accept a fraction of the pay they're entitled to simply retain longevity. It's quite sad.

For the record, I have longevity, and I'd happily price myself out of a job. It's called principal. If only more of us would get on the same page we could actually make this a profession worth persuing again.

And no I don't have a sugar moma, I don't have a second career (at the moment). But I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure know what I'm worth, and it sure as hell is more than the sky cap.

What you are worth and what the market will bear (and subsequently, what you can negotiate) are 2 entirely different ideas. What you are worth has really very little, if any, bearing on the issue. Voting no on a contract because you think you are "worth" more simply serves to allow you to chest thump the next few years in the crew room and say, "don't blame me, I voted no."



The difference here RM, is that you (and every other XJT pilot) will have no chance to "price themselves" our of a job simply due to the fact that getting released to a strike in the near-future to mid-future is absolutely not going to happen.



And yes, I agree with you that the rates these days are disgustingly low, as you put it. However, if you haven't noticed, the industry is in a tail slide, yields are down year over year, fuel prices are at their highest ever, there is a ton of RJ capacity out there (in case we ever do get released), and management has absolutely no incentive to want to provide the kind of rates you think you deserve.



One of, if not the, main reason XJT is not going to get the rates that they should get is because there are airlines (notice I didn't say pilot groups), willing to fly for CAL much cheaper than XJT is, even currently. People just don't get that fact and reality. If you are running XJT, why would you throw Comair+ rates on the table when a) Comair's rates will probably go south very soon and b) nobody else is anywhere near those rates and c) airlines like CHQ and SKYW are dying for CAL business?



Think this one through guys. Chest Thumping isn't going to get us Comair + wages. Sad but true.



Sam

 

[miles otoole]

Ask the passengers what they're willing to pay us per hour. Tell them each that we'll take $5.00 from each of them per flight hour. They'd agree. Can you imagine the raise?!

They would agree? I am sure most would say, "I don't make enough as it is. I have my own bills to pay. My neighbor is a pilot and he works 7 fewer days a month than I do. Go deliver pizzas on your days off or quit your job if you don't get paid what you feel you are worth."
Like it or not, most passengers could care less what salary struggles pilots endure.

 

[bogberto]

They would agree? I am sure most would say, "I don't make enough as it is. I have my own bills to pay. My neighbor is a pilot and he works 7 fewer days a month than I do. Go deliver pizzas on your days off or quit your job if you don't get paid what you feel you are worth."
Like it or not, most passengers could care less what salary struggles pilots endure.

The question posed was what are we worth. My reply was in reference to that. If passengers knew that we, in all reality, make far less than minimum wage per heartbeat, they might stop thinking of us as overpaid whiners and start thinking of us as underpaid professionals. It's a big "might" I know, but we can dream. The last several passengers who've taken the time to learn how little I make and how I only get paid when the plane is moving were shocked. As long as John Q. Public continues to be in the dark about our situation, they'll never care an ounce.