Hey Avbug!

[Speedtree]

A question to keep you sharp. I don't know if it will be hard or not, I guess it depends on whether or not you know the answer. Or anybody else.

What's the regulation that states you can log an approach if it's IMC at the FAF? I think this is the generally accepted rule but where is it written down?


Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

14 CFR 61.57(c)

Let me take a crack at it until Avbug shows up.

14 CFR 61.57(c) states the approaches must begin in IMC:

(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:

(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions . . . . .

(i) At least six instrument approaches . . .

(emphasis added)

So, if you commence the approach at the FAF in less than VFR conditions but break out anytime thereafter, you get to count the approach and the time as actual instrument time. All an instrument approach procedure is is a way to let down safely in IMC.

Hope that helps.

 

[low&slow]

Bobbysamd, I think you might be wrong

In order for the approach to count, you would have to both begin the approach and end it (FAF to DH/MDA) in less then VFR conditions or simulated conditions.

Here's my written proof, which can be found at the FAA website under the FAQ for Part 61 (http://av-info.faa.gov/data/640otherfaq/pt61-16.doc). It appears to be on page 97 of the document, buried among all the other "interpretations." Granted this source is not legally binding, but as the disclaimer says at the beginning of the document, it's as close as you'll ever get without being infront of the law judge (but then it also says that the judge's ruling may be overruled by the NTSB, so who really knows??? )

QUESTION: As far as logging an approach in actual, is there any requirement (i.e. must it be in actual conditions beyond the final approach fix)? Assume that the pilot was flying single-pilot IFR so he couldn't simply put on the hood if he broke out?

ANSWER: §61.51(g)(1) and §61.57(c)(1)(i); Again the only place where it defines logging “instrument flight time” means “. . . a person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments . . . .” As for logging an "actual" approach, it would presume the approach to be to the conclusion of the approach which would mean the pilot go down to the decision height or to the minimum decent altitude, as appropriate. If what you’re asking is whether it is okay to fly to the FAF and break it off and then log it as accomplishing an approach, the answer is NO.
{Q&A-291}

 

[bigD]

Well dang it low&slow - I certainly hope you're wrong. Otherwise I'm going to have to go back through my logbook and remove a bunch of approaches. I always logged the approach if I was IMC after the FAF, but not necessarily to the DH or MAP. A couple of weeks ago I flew the ILS to 300 feet - I can't log that as an approach? Or am I misreading what you said?

 

[low&slow]

I just copied and pasted what I read from the FAA interpretation. Since I'm fairly dumb and not an official source , I guess you're going to have to make your own interpretation of what the FAA interpretation is. But come to think of it, I seem to recall watching you fly that approach, and I think you were closer to 200' when you popped out

low@slow

 

[bobbysamd]

Clarification

Maybe I need to clarify what I wrote. You can count the approach because you started it in actual. How else will you let down legally in IMC? I would count an ASR or PAR as an approach using the same rationale.

You may count as instrument time only that under which you were flying the airplane in actual conditions by reference to instruments. How else would you be flying the airplane? In other words, let's say you started the approach in IMC and moments later, you broke out. I would count only those "moments" as instrument time. So, if it was only a couple of minutes, that's the only time you can count as instrument time. Some people may not log the time at all. Others, who are starved for actual, might count .1.

Of course, the FAQ opinion is not an official interpretation. Just like if you went to ten different FSDOs with the same question you might get ten different answers. People will always say, though, that a FSDO opinion does not count as a legal opinion.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[DC9stick]

This would only be a factor for those flying under Pt. 91.
Part 135 and 121 instrument proficiency checks taken each six months meet all FAR requirements, therefore no logging of approaches is required.

 

[avbug]

Rather than dive into this again, we covered this at length in the FAR forum. It would be best to go read over that and then post back with further questions.

I'm not against covering it again, but the material is still available, complete with references and legal interps. Let's start there.

 

[Speedtree]

Thanks, I will see if I can find it.

 

[Speedtree]

I found it. Good Information.

It is one of those times where some reading between the lines is appropriate. As mentioned on the other thread and by FAA inspectors in Houston. You are responsible for interpreting the FARs for yourself and following them and maintaining your own proficiency and legality so be conservative.

Thanks everybody.

Next time I won't be so lazy.