Herb to the rescue!!

[scoreboard]

TWU position variable

I reviewed the TWU website and noted that the union wants the best of all the worlds. First, I think the FA's deserve a bit better pay plan, but here is my point: TWU compares how they don't get paid for non-flight time, with all the associated work entailed during non-flight time, but then they compare themselves to ground crew/front office folks. Then they say they are the only ones who do not get paid during training, yet each and every pilot shows up happy to have spent near $10,000 to walk in the door. I was ammused that pilots get .15 cents more than FA's, so do we eat more?? Lets get the FA's a deal and press on with life, go Herb!

 

[SWAInflt]

Re: TWU position variable

I Then they say they are the only ones who do not get paid during training, yet each and every pilot shows up happy to have spent near $10,000 to walk in the door.

I think the real issue with training pay is that most trainees report to class with little or no savings and then graduate to an expensive coastal city, i.e. BWI or OAK. We are not employees until we graduate and employees don't get paid. That is a tough reality to overcome at the bargaining table. A suitable compromise might be offering to advance newbies a portion of their salaries right out of class with repayment handled via payroll deductions ala uniforms. That way the company doesn't have to actually "pay" during training and the newbies don't have to starve. The catch as how many would take the money only to wash out before we could get it back. On the other hand, I did not get paid for training and I survived. I tend to be a bit of a stickler for personal responsibility. Gather the facts, take a long hard look at your finances and if you can't afford it, accept that and wait until you can. As far as the money our flight ops have to spend to get on here. I can't even imagine what you folks go through. Hopefully, once you have your foot in the door you are able to realize a nice return on that investment.

 

[RVSM]

Gutsy move on Parker's part. Opens him up to criticism that he failed but at the same time he realized that the negotiations had gotten personal and it was time to step aside in order to move forward.

Somewhere in the middle an agreement will be found. Keep in mind a great contract means both sides come out thinking they got hosed.

my $0.02

 

[TR4A]

If I'm not mistaken Walmart is one of our nations largest employers

It's the second largest employer. The US Government IS the largest employer in the USA.

 

[canyonblue]

but we have flexed our muscles and forced Jim to step aside

This is exactly what they want you to think. We beat Jim. They pulled a good one and in the long run it will cost the company nothing. The contract will be signed, after all you guys hedged your bet that Jim was the guy who ruined Herb's empire. Herb WILL force the hand and you guys can't disagree with Herb now or you will lose faith with the silent MAJORITY. As I guessed last year when an F/A brought the company proposal to the cockpit, that + or - 2-3% is exactly what yor final contract will be.

A starting pay north of what we have now but south of jetBlue will still bring em in.

Yea but at JetBlue the F/A position isn't a career. They have designed it to be a 5 year position then you move on. (A direct quote from Ann Rhodes the head of H.R.)

However, I think they know that if they're hanging their hats on painting Herb with the same tar and feather brush they used on Jim, we're all screwed .

I can agree with you on that point 100%.

 

[SWAInflt]

This is exactly what they want you to think. We beat Jim. They pulled a good one and in the long run it will cost the company nothing. The contract will be signed, after all you guys hedged your bet that Jim was the guy who ruined Herb's empire. Herb WILL force the hand and you guys can't disagree with Herb now or you will lose faith with the silent MAJORITY. As I guessed last year when an F/A brought the company proposal to the cockpit, that + or - 2-3% is exactly what yor final contract will be.

Only time will tell if Jim's ability to negotiate effectively or not has been impacted. I guess we'll know for sure when the next labor group steps to the table. Whether it was a calculated political move or not it is a huge gamble for him to let a labor group as large is this one "believe" they bested him. It is a dangerous precedent that could impact the way organized labor at this company negotiates for years to come. It has already cost the company. It has cost the company money, that could have been spent elsewhere if this had been wrapped up a year ago. It has has cost the company time and distraction that could other have been focused on making SWA a stronger competitor. No matter what, there is a cost.

Support for the smear campaign runs the gamut for vehement to passive to comletely counter There are well over 7,000 of us and and just like flight ops, we don't all think alike. Some of us are capable of drawing our own conclusions without help from TWU 556 or anyone else. But those of us who think that way are tough to spot. We're the ones that are too busy doing our jobs to sit in the cockpit and talk about the contract . Meet you back here when we've ratified a TA and we'll see how close your guess came to the final numbers. You just might be right and I'm good with that. If they get the details right, I'll be as happy as clam. But then again, I never expected to get rich doing this. Not even close. Give me a decent bump and leave my unlimited trip trades alone and I'm good to go.

Yea but at JetBlue the F/A position isn't a career. They have designed it to be a 5 year position then you move on. (A direct quote from Ann Rhodes the head of H.R.)

Do the jetBlue flight attendants know that they're short-timers? The ones I've run into are so happy there.. it's gonna take a crowbar to get them off the seniority list. If I were making the kind of money they are I'd feel exactly the same way. I think when B6 started out they envisioned their flight attendant corps being made up of college students and others "in transition" what they ended up with were a bunch of refugees from the majors. Short of having new-hires sign a document promising to quit, how could they possibly think people would leave B6 just when life starts to get good there?

I'd take alot of flack for "selling out the newbies" on the F/A boards for this but I would vote "Yes" for a TA with a $16 or $17 starting pay in a heartbeat. I started out earning much less and I survived. If anything a lower starting pay weeds out the fortune hunters. Keep the entry wage a couple of bucks below standard and you have a better chance of knowing that your candidates actually want to be at SWA, as opposed to just wanting a job.

 

[canyonblue]

Do the jetBlue flight attendants know that they're short-timers? The ones I've run into are so happy there.. it's gonna take a crowbar to get them off the seniority list.

Maybe some JB pilots can chime in here but the way it was explained to me was that the F/A position is not long term ( as I pointed to the quote from Ann Rhodes). It may have changed, please correct me if I am wrong. Without a union there is nothing they can do to change this. I know some are coming up on 5 years, what is the status?

BTW, I still think the SWA F/A's do a great job day in and day out. I hope what ever comes down can make everyone happy, but that usually does not happen.

 

[SWAInflt]

Maybe some JB pilots can chime in here but the way it was explained to me was that the F/A position is not long term ( as I pointed to the quote from Ann Rhodes). It may have changed, please correct me if I am wrong. Without a union there is nothing they can do to change this. I know some are coming up on 5 years, what is the status?

I was already working for WN when B6 hit the scene. I did some serious checking into the flight attendant position....alot of of us did. I think even then people had a very clear sense that jetBlue was not going to be just another start-up and the idea of getting in on the ground floor of something great was very tempting. We get giddy when the last row on a flight is empty so we can chill out(after the Customers are sufficiently fed and watered of course..... )...the idea of that backrow having LiveTV is enough to require a change of underwear.

In the end I decided to stay. I was to close to being vested to quit and by the time I was vested I had too much seniority to just walk away from.

If I remember correctly at the beginning jetBlue was recruiting flight attendants in 3 catergories. Like you said, I'm sure a B6er can give us the scoop but I think I'm pretty close.

FLIGHT ATTENDANT 2000

This was a 1 year contract marketed to college students taking a semester off or others looking for a short-term flying job.

FLIGHT ATTENDANT FRIENDS

This was essentially a permanent job share. Two people would interview together, get hired together and share the flying on a single line.

TRADITIONAL FLIGHT ATTENDANT CREW

This was the third category for potential crewmembers interested in just a plain old run of the mill flying job.

BTW, I still think the SWA F/A's do a great job day in and day out. I hope what ever comes down can make everyone happy, but that usually does not happen.

Thank You. It is always nice to know we're appreciated. I can tell you this....there is a small faction that will NEVER be made happy...they could be making 12 year captain pay and it still would not be enough. Personally, I think SWA can do better
than what is currently on the table...but they are much closer to hitting my sweetspot than they realize and I suspect I'm not alone. Alot of us are just ready for this to be over. One way or the other. Our lives are on hold. We don't want to make any major purchases because our financial futures and to a point jobs are a huge question mark. You can only live like that for so long.

 

[Lear70]

Do the jetBlue flight attendants know that they're short-timers? The ones I've run into are so happy there.. it's gonna take a crowbar to get them off the seniority list. If I were making the kind of money they are I'd feel exactly the same way. I think when B6 started out they envisioned their flight attendant corps being made up of college students and others "in transition" what they ended up with were a bunch of refugees from the majors. Short of having new-hires sign a document promising to quit, how could they possibly think people would leave B6 just when life starts to get good there?

That's EXACTLY what they did. Have a friend who is a flight attendant there, and although she loves it, she's year 2 of 5 and knows good and d*mn well that she only has a 50/50 chance of being rehired for another 5. Definitely one way to keep your F/A cadre young and cute which is what the business traveler has said they want.

I also believe the pilots have a 5-year contract as well, and also are just about the only airline I know of to not have a probationary period, they're full-fledged employees as of day 1, but there's no union to "protect" them. Should be interesting to see how both groups are handled when they hit year 5...

Good luck to you!

 

[Snoopy58]

It is always nice to know we're appreciated.

I don't think it's a minority view to say that the F/A's are very, very much appreciated by the pilots at SWA, as well as the rest of the company. You guys & gals do a tremendous job with some long days and occassionally tough situations, and a lot of people (I among them) really admire what you do, and it is NOT a throwaway line to say that we hope you get a good contract, and soon. Hopefully Herb's entry will make that happen sooner rather than later.

I think much of the distrust and unappreciation (?) is directed not at the flight attendants themselves, but at some of the "leadership" of the union and the negotiating tactics & propaganda they've put out. Wanting to see you get a good contract and a fair contract and hopefully getting it quickly, is (as you probably well understand) not at all the same thing as suspending judgement of all that goes on, and after a while a LOT of pilots are seeing a pattern of duplicity in the TWU leadership's statements (both to the press & to the membership).

Recently, there was some suggestion of a notional "vote of no confidence" in Jim Parker among the F/A's. It was suggested in private discussions that maybe a confidence / no confidence vote in the union leaders & tactics would be more informative.

I hope Herb can get things unjammed & you all get a good contract soon. My opinion of the Flight Attendants, the People, that I fly with, is very high. My opinion of the F/A union leadership is very low. I'm sorry that the one is represented by the other, particularly when it looks like the agendas have significant differences.

Just a personal opinion, but one that I think is very close to the mainstream in the company.

All the best getting a good contract soon.

Snoopy