Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Help with PRIA?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

El Duderino

Jet Aircraft Pilot
Joined
Jan 12, 2002
Posts
71
A former employer has smeared my name. According to my Pilot Record Improvement Act file, I was fired by them for unauthorized carry of a firearm. The real reason was failure to fly into weather(don't want to give to many details). I was given authorization to carry, and this was there way of firing me. It has bit me twice, not causing any harm. But my new employer always asks about it. I am worried about the future and what the airlines will think with this on my record. Who do I contact to contest this. I have already tried to resolve it with the company several times.
Thank You
duder
TIA
 
Last edited:
My suggestion would be to hire an attorney. I don't think you necessarily need an aviation lawyer, but rather someone who can write a nasty-gram to your old employer threatening to bring a libel action if they don't correct your records. The letter might also make mention of the part of the PRIA that I've copied below, which would seem to give you the right to correct inaccuracies in your records.

A good lawyer could knock out such a letter in under a couple of hours, which would make his fee about $200-$350. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the value of your aviation career. Good luck.

(9) Right to correct inaccuracies.--An air carrier that maintains or requests and receives the records of an individual under paragraph (1) shall provide the individual with a reasonable opportunity to submit written comments to correct any inaccuracies contained in the records before making a final hiring decision with respect to the individual.

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice. If you want legal advice, hire an attorney licensed to practice law in your state.
 
Ihave tried to hire an attorney and have had no luck. I am sure I didn't look hard enough, however I am intersted more in how the FAA takes care of the problem. Maybe I should try with a lawyer first. Thank you for your advice. Any more advice would be greatly appreciated.
Duder
 
El Duderino said:
however I am intersted more in how the FAA takes care of the problem.

I've never heard of the FAA "taking care" of any pilot's PRIA problems. Even if they did this sort of thing, I wouldn't rely on a bureaucratic government agency to fix my problems for me. Especially not when you're talking about something as serious as your pilot career.
 
PRIA blues

Have you tried asking your former company for you records? I had a problem getting my records from my previous employer and Bin Laaidoff (Flight info member) helped out by sending me a acrobat copy of the PRIA notice. I e-mailed it to my previous employer, hightling the fact that they are required to respond to the former employees request within 30 days. I got everything I wanted within 5 days.

If you would like I could e-mail you the pdf copy and you could read through it. You could also ask Bin Laaidoff if he can help you.

72Longhorn
 
Dudarino,

Try harder on the attorney.

This isn't a small matter. Depending on how it's handled, it could go away and not cause you problems, or result in the revocation of all your certificates and ratings...if the TSA happens to become involved. The fact that an allegation of unauthorized carriage or use of a firearm is in your aggregate record could easily be enough to cause the TSA to consider you a potential security risk. Under the present regulation and the current state of affairs, the TSA has the legal authority to require the FAA to revoke all your certification. No explaination need be given, and you have no recourse to find out why, once it's done.

With respect to requesting your records, it's evident from your post that you already have access to the material forwarded by your former employer, or you wouldn't be posting this thread. Apparently you don't need to request those records, or at least, that's not your problem at this stage.

Your post was rather nebulous, and didn't include any circumstances or details, or what you are looking for on this board. You have apparently been in contact with your former employer, to no avail. You are apparently aware of, and have seen your records. I can only surmise that you are wanting to make this matter go away.

The short answer is that it probably won't. If indeed there was cause for separation based on the use of the firearm, then the former employer is legally justified, and is required, to report it. If no such justification existed, then your best bet will be to file suit for defamation against that employer with the aid of a competent attorney. It comes down to this: did you do what they said you did, or did you not?

You indicated that other extenuating circumstances existed that lead to your separation from the company. You have indicated that you were let go unjustly. If this is the case, then you need to obtain a legal judgement showing that you are in the right, and this means lawsuit. Until you have something credible to back up your claims, it's a matter of you against the employer. A potential employer must pit your word of mouth against the legal paperwork submitted by your former employer. It's a liability issue for your potential employer. You need to be able to provide him with something just as valid to defend himself, and to put you back in the drivers seat.

If you can win a case against your former employer, then you'll have the weight you need. You can always show that you were exhonerated in a court of law.

If the employer is justified in his or her actions, however, you'll only be serving to dig your own grave, legally speaking.

Having said that, right now you do have something going for you, and that is that you've indicated that you've been hired by two diffeent emplors since that time. This adds credence to your own accounts, only so far as other employers have found ou to be servicable. The more distance you can put beteween you and the events with the firearm, the better.

You stated that you've tried to hire an attorney to no avail. That can only mean that you lack sufficient funds (typical, for pilots) to do so. Finding an attorney is only slightly more difficult than hurting your foot when kicking a rock, so it can't be lack of attorneys.

You do need an attorney; you're more likely to cause yourself more problems going it alone than you are to do any good for yourself. Get the attorney.

Leaving that for a moment, what were you doing with the firearm in your flying job? There are a few positions that require it these days, but very few. Did you have written authorization to carry the weapon? If not, you may well be wasting your time to think twice about it...verbal authorization won't amount to a hill of beans. Do you hold a copy of written authorization to carry?

Leave aside the other reasons you may have separated. Yes, they're bad people and they let you go for refusing to do what you thought was unsafe. That's not relevant. Further, as you progress through different interviews, your attitudes regarding former employers are very important. Don't disparage a former employer, even if you really dislike them. Any future employer will look closely at your attitudes regarding others, especially those for whom you've worked. This is one place where if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing.

Your mission presently is to have the former employer stop notifying people that you carried a weapon. Make up your mind right now to distance yourself as much as possible from any controversy regarding arguement, weapons, fights, disagreements, or any other problem issue. If you're flying law enforcement, or carry a firearm in Alaska, or one of several other exceptions, carry with written permission to do so. But otherwise, don't even allow yourself to be associated by reputation with carriage or posession...especially in the workplace. It's a very big issue.

I'm all for firearms rights. I own, I carry, I handload, I shoot, and in times past, I was also an instructor. I've been paid to carry, and I've carried in conjunction with flight duties. However, discretion is not only the better part of valor, it's the better part of keeping your career intact. The mere mention of firearms in conjunction with most aviation activities or most employment sends up big checkered red flags for most employers. Regardless of what you believe or think, it's their perceptions that count, and it's those perceptions you want to plan for and live by.

Get an attorney, get counselled specifically on the matter, and pursue it; it really is important.
 
Thank You Avbug,
I appreciate your extensive post. I don't have time to comment in full, however I would like to add a few answers to the question I have asked.
I was hired by this company to fly freight in 310s and 402s. Like many people I made a very expensive move, and was told the job was much different than it actually was. My training went fine, and I did very well. I acheived an 8410 with very little training required(they woiuld have offered as much as needed, it seemed). During my training there was an Al Queda member in the ground school. The FBI was looing for him still when I left. Also very close to the time I was working for this company, an air ambulance King Air was high jacked at one of the airports our routes flew. Luckily the woman flying ditched on the takeoff role and the high jackers ran away from the airplane without hurting anyone, except for injuries aquired during the ditching. The FBI was in contact with our Chief Pilot several times a week, warning of threats picked up against small cargo planes(this was just after the 911 events). I had recently aquired my Concealed handgun license from my home state, without receprocity in the state I was in. The state I was in allowed open carry however. My chief Pilot was a Federal Firearms Licensed citizen. I asked him for permission, and was given the okay verbally. He told me that it would be fine if I carried, told me he carried, and for two out of three weeks of me being there he was well aware of my carrying a firearm, and endorsed it. In fact often times would ask to see my gun, and would inspect it(after my unloading).
One evening on my return leg home, weather at my first stop was bad. The other cargo company that has the same run was not going in. Mountainous, Winter, frontal weather in a Normally aspirated 310 with no ice protection except for pitot, stall and prop. I decided against it, called dispatch told them I was unable to make the trip but could make it back to base at the present time with no problem. The Chief Pilot cussed me out over the phone, called a pilot for our company who was there on a Visa from Argentina and he and the Boss flew up to my position. When he arrived he humiliated me in front of everyone at the FBO and didn't even offer me a ride home. He made me jumpseat home on a carrier we had a an agreement with. The Visa pilot went missed three times and made it home. He later told me how upset he was with himself for accepting the mission. I left my weapon with a very sweet lady who drove our cargo Jumped home and went to bed. the following afternoon I was asked into the office for a meeting with the DO and DM, the CP was not present. The DO and DM asked me to tell my story. Afterwards they told me to move on that I was fired. When I returned my badge and O2 Canula mask, the Chief Pilot ever so smugly told me "Good Luck Finding a Job." I have had great luck. I work for a wonderful company now, and the one before was great as well. This has not caused me any problems other than a brief explanation to my current employee. I have passed a my TSA fingerprinting and have just recently begun to worry again about the problem.
The Reason why is a lady at my company recently had drinks with the old DO. The old DO I actually liked, and respected, kinda guy that demanded it, and deserved it. Even after he screwed me, I for some reason can understand from his point of veiw why he did what he did. They can't excatly say they fired me because I refused to fly into a winter frontal sytem in the mountains. Still they are scumbags for what they did. So the dispatcher tells me she had drinks with my old DO. I asked what he said, and she tells me" If I ever show up on his ramp he'll shoot me". I asked her to tell him I would like to have a drink with him and discuss the situation(which she is very familiar with). Haven't heard anything.
I understand the regs and they don't require written permission, only permission from someone having operational control, however I understand your comment Avbug that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I don't have money for a lawyer. I don't want to get the law invloved until I get in touch with the old DO first. If I am unable to have him change the Record, I then want to contact the appropriate person to resolve the issue. There must be a process the FAA has established for this situation. There has to be due process(or whatever) if there is a way the employer can say such an awful thing.
I am really nervous about any future airline employer onterveiw, and also the TSA digging(even though I have passed recently) and suspending my license.
I thank you for any additional advice anyone may have. And thank you for the advice already given.
duder
 
Last edited:
Duderino,

I see from your personal info that you're holding a captain position on a lear right now...good for you. I'm going to guess from the information you've provided that you're in a far better place, and that the folks who did these things aren't folks that you need to worry about too much.

The comment from your former DO about shooting you if you come near his place sort of says it all.

I've been in the position of saying no to flights due to my own limitations, or those of the airplane, or just a feeling that I shouldn't make the trip. I've been yelled at, threatened with losing my job, threatened physically. I've had employers tell me they don't care if I come back, just takeoff so they can say they dispatched the flight. I've said no, stayed in the airplane overnight, stayed in hotels, even a tent.

I'm not going to pass judgement on your former carriage of the weapons; I wasn't there, and it's not my place. You're in the best position of anyone to draw your own conclusions on the matter.

The one thing you didn't cover was weather you've seen the reports forwarded to your more recent employers, from the bad-seed employer. The issue to look at right now is weather the smearing or information that may be derrogatory in nature is in writing, or if it's been passed along by other means.

I believe you indicated that the chief pilot was a friend. You also indicated that he turned on you...is there anybody there that can or will write a letter of recommendation for you? It can work to your benifit...you may have something derrogatory said, but if you can counter with a letter from someone there, then that may be all you need. Point and counterpoint. Share your story about refusing to fly, if asked, explain your reasons, and stick to the facts...show that good judgement was exercised and that you held that in higher regard than the security of your job. Such events can be turned in your favor by the way you portray yourself, given the chance.

If you do elect to make contact with your former employers, do so carefully, and with tact. Be sure to let them know that all you want to do is move on with your life and leave bygones where they lie...see if he's willing to do the same. Don't waste too much time on the effort; if he's not willing to negotiate, don't try too hard...move on. Even a mud-bottom river is usually pretty clear if you don't stir it. That can wait until you are in a position to get legal counsel.

Be sure to obtain letters of recommendation from as many people as you can with your employment since that time...and if you can, from employment before the bad-seed operator. This shows you having a trend of approval, and tends to show up the bad-seed for what he really is. Good luck!!
 
Avbug,

As an aside, you are no longer required to carry a firearm while flying in Alaska. That statute was rescinded a couple of years ago.
 
Rats. And here I was saving up for that Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70. Ah well. More money for donuts, I guess.
 
Defamation 101

El Duderino said:
A former employer has smeared my name. According to my Pilot Record Improvement Act file, I was fired by them for unauthorized carry of a firearm. The real reason was failure to fly into weather(don't want to give to many details). I was given authorization to carry, and this was there way of firing me. It has bit me twice, not causing any harm. But my new employer always asks about it. I am worried about the future and what the airlines will think with this on my record. Who do I contact to contest this. I have already tried to resolve it with the company several times.
Unfortunate situation. As always, I must qualify my comments as one who cannot give legal advice. However, I know a little law, and although the situation is complex it sounds like it could be a case of libel. Defamation, in written form, is libel.

Defamation is an intentional tort. You have to prove several things to make a prima facie case. You have to prove that the defamation was intentional, that your reputation was damaged, and the extent to which you were damaged. The truth is a complete defense to defamation. Although many cases appear to be clear-cut, my experience has been that all cases, no matter how good they are, are hard to prove. Defense lawyers get paid, too.

Review of your response to Avbug shows a somewhat convoluted set of circumstances and maybe no clear-cut defamation. You had been carrying, possibly wrongfully (I don't know for sure; I don't know carrying laws), which throws a wrench into the situation. You would have to prove that you were carrying legally and with permission. It also appears that you have not been damaged - yet. Having said all of that, just the same, I, too, would urge you to see an attorney, at least to negotiate a retraction of the PRIA report. However, on the other hand . . . .

A better door apparently opened for you when the other one closed. Accordingly, I would also second Avbug's advice about obtaining as many positive LORs as possible from this former employer. Brandish these letters at interviews, and they may be enough to overcome this slam.

Hope this $0.02 advice helps. Good luck with overcoming your situation.
 
You've received some excellent advice here. One thing I'll add is that there is a statute of limitations on all tort actions, including defamation. If you wait until after the statute has run to seek legal advice, you will have significantly weakened your position. I'd suggest that you find out what the statute of limitations is in your state. You can do this yourself by going to a law library (all law schools have one, as do most courthouses) and asking the law librarian to help you find out the statute of limitations for a defamation action. In addition to finding out how long you have, you also want to know when the statute starts to run (e.g. when the defamatory statement was made or when you found out about the defamatory statement).

DISCLAIMER: This is not legal advice. If you want legal advice, hire an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction.
 
THERE HE IS!

i was wondering when bobbysamd was gonna show up on this one....

anyway, the PRIA records of employment are only required to be kept for 5 years with the former employer. after that. to my knowlege, you dont have to list them on the PRIA forms. and they get to dump their records.

and another thing: regardless of any permission that any department gives you wether it be assurances of upgrade times or pay rates or job duties, make sure you get it in writing and signed and dated by the person mak,ing that promise. they may think youre a bit anal but in a case like this, a signed letter stating that you had approval to carry could have decimated their claimed reason to fire you. there is something called Tact and im very bad at it. but it is a great thing to learn. the way i see it theres always a way to ask/say/vocalize a concern or problem and not ruffle feathers. the problem is that i have to find out what combination of words they are, and then try not to shout them directly. :)

yeah, anyone you got along with and anyone you flew with, get letters stating your competence...also the NWS keeps logs of the weather and they might still have on file the weather from that specific night in question. with that in hand you can also show what it really was like.

but again 5 years after the fact it will no longer be a question.
 
Last edited:
One question:

Are you quicker on the draw? If you are, just show up unannounced on the ramp with your sidearm and wearing a duster. You can settle it mano y mano.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top