help with landings

[hammer]

I have about 19 hrs of flight training and every thing is going great except landings. It seems like every manuver I pick up on quickly. Steep turns,power on & power off stalls,etc no problem, but I am having trouble when to flare. My instructer says my pattern work is excellent and I am set up good when on final but, It seems like I start too late and land flat. My landings are not hard, I just seem to land with the nose level instead of slightly raised. Everyone says this is the hardest part for some people and I was wondering if anyone has any hints that helped them past this phase of training. My instructer says I am doing fine but, its kind of frustating because I know this is holding me back from my solo. Thanks for any help.

 

[cookmg]

Hey Hammer,

No question about it, landings are the hardest part of training. I didn't really start to understand this maneuver (that's what it is right?) until working on my commercial recently. I'm sure when I become an instructor, my perspective on how to do it right is going to change even more. I really wouldn't want you to get discouraged over this as almost everyone has a different "issue" when learning to land safely.

I would hesitate to be specific with tips or anything; your instructor is there and sees exactly what you are doing, so he'd be able to help fix exactly what is wrong.

When I'm stuck in a certain part of training (like recently on lazy-8s), it helps me to mix in other maneuvers and not over do it on just one area. You'll experience that working on other things will improve your overall skills, and it will keep you from getting frustrated by constantly working on something that still isn't coming out right. So, if you find yourself getting frustrated, ask your instructor for a "break" and head out to the practice area one session. You may find that you'll come back to the pattern more ready to land the plane correctly. In the meantime, look at this extra time before solo as an opportunity to improve your knowledge and skills so that you will be very well prepared to go out flying by yourself.

Good luck. That solo will surely come in due time.

 

[hydroflyer]

One trick that has helped out students well in the past is to start making approaches without flaps. It will have you coming in faster, but the airplane will feel a little more solid. The approach down final will be a little more flat, but that will also mean your nose won't have to travel as far in pitch to reach the correct flare attitude. Keep you speed under control down final and be smooth with your power changes. A sudden change in power will usually mean a suddent change in the way the airplane flies. Try a few without the flaps and you should be able to see the correct perspective out of the windscreen (or at least enough not to 3-point). Once you get those down, add in one notch of flaps and try it, then two and then full flaps. You may even consider going to a long runway if possible to try these so you have more time before running out of runway. There is nothing wrong with using no or partial flaps and it becomes useful later for crosswind landings. Besides, it adds a little variety to things. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Singlecoil]

It sounds like your CG might be a little forward. You would be surprised how much easier it is to land with someone in the back seat. I'm not sure the plane you are flying has a back seat, but maybe you can use some ballast to get the CG toward the back.

Without flaps, your nose would need to be even higher in the flare than with flaps.

It is important to be able to land consistently at different CG's before you solo because as soon as your instructor gets out, your CG moves aft. Not only that, but at the lighter weight without the instructor, you should shave about 3 knots (for a 2000 pound airplane) off your approach speeds based on the formula: (Sq. root of (new weight/old weight)) * speed

 

[xjcaptain]

This is easy..........

There are three very simple rules for great landings.



Except nobody knows what they are!! Keep practicing, it will come...

 

[jdog78]

Eyes down the runway!

This is something my instructor always told me in the flare portion of the landing. Like any student pilot, I didn't do that because I wanted to see what was coming up under my nose! I had a tendency to make 3-point landings rather than landing on the mains first. The turning point for me came on my first solo X-C...i landed nose first and porpoised down the runway. Completely embarrassed and scared, I added power and got the hell out of there. So I decided to put my eyes down the runway in the flare and whaddya know? I land mains first every time.
The position of our head affects the way we perceive the attitude of the airplane. With your head up and eyes looking down the runway rather than two stripes in front of you, you should have a better perspective of the proper flare attitude.

-j

 

[great cornholio]

If you are landing flat then go ahead and try to make sure that in the flare you aim for the same pitch attitude (looking outside of course) that you use when you rotate for take off. It should be to just about the top of the trees or so at the end of the runway. Another thing you can do is make sure that your force yourself to look at the other end of the runway when you flare, instead of looking right infront of the plane. But dont get too discouraged just cause you cant land too great for now. Your still learning it will come with practice. Like it was said go mix it up with manuevers you do well so you dont forget how to do those and so you dont get burnt out.

 

[hammer]

Thanks for all the help and encouragement, I guess I just want to do this so bad I am kind of hard on myself. I believe I am doing exactly what jdog78 is talking about. I fly again monday and I am going to keep my eyes looking down the runway. Thanks again.

 

[bigD]

Are you doing the training in the 172, or the Cherokee?

 

[Toy Soldier]

LANDING TECH-TIPS (add to the above information)

1. Make sure that your pattern flying is as CONSISTENT as possible - every time! Good landings begin with consistent pattern work.

a) Be at the same altitude opposite the touchdown point EVERYTIME.
b) Establish your 300-500' fpm descent EVERYTIME.
c) Turn base at the same altitude EVERYTIME.
d) Turn onto final at the same point EVERYTIME.

2. While on final, remember these two acronyms: PAPA and PAPA

a) P.A.P.A. (pronounced PAPA)
Perfect alignment, perfect airspeed

b) P.A.P.A. (pronounced PAPA)
Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude

3. While on final, in your mind draw an imaginary circle around your desired touchdown point, IE; the numbers.Then;

a) If the "numbers" are rising - raise the gas (you are sinking)
b) If the "numbers" are lowering - lower the gas (you are rising)
c) Sit still in your seat with little to NO headmovement

4. Upon landing, make the airplane fly - do NOT try to land it. Don't "put" it on the ground, let it settle to the ground.

5. Look at a point at the end of the runway. However, you will need to use your peripheral vision as well.

6. Keep the nose slightly higher than the mains upon landing.

7. Never "stop" flying the airplane!

 

[Tug Driver]

those are all great ideas. i think that i may even steal some of them.

One of my students has that same problem.

I suggest only using 20 degrees of flaps, so you dont drop like a rock.
I have him add 2 rolls of nose up trim during final approach, so he doesnt have to fight the controls as much.
And milking the power back is much better than chopping it all at once.

hope that help ya...

 

[Singlecoil]

Re: LANDING TECH-TIPS (add to the above information)

Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude

Oh no, here we go again.

 

[hammer]

bigD
I am training in cherokee, I guess I am so concerned with getting the plane on the ground I forget to keep flying it like Toy Soldier says.

 

[bobbysamd]

Landings

A couple of ideas:

1. Use the same attitude and image as for an approach-to-landing stall. In other words, it should be slightly nose-up, with the top "curve" of the cowl touching the horizon.

2. Maybe you're letting the nose drop as you're reducing power on final and in the flare. Maintain and feed in back pressure as you reduce power.

3. Further to a suggestion of above, to this day I can still hear my instructor telling me to "transition my glance" to the end of the runway in the flare. You may be looking at the runway surface in your flare. Don't. Keep looking over the cowl and straight ahead to the end of the runway. You do want to be aware of your peripheral clues.

4. Of course, you've heard that a good landing is preceded by a good final which is preceded by a good base which is preceded by a good downwind. Make sure that you have your airspeed and configuration well-stabilized and trimmed on final. Probably 63 kts and two notches of flaps in your Cherokee.

Hope these help a little. Tell us how your solo went.

 

[hydroflyer]

Out of curiosity, what model Cherokee? I've only taught initial training in the 161 and 181 series, but am also familiar with the 140 and 151 series.

I think my student that had the most trouble with landings was also in the cherokee (although I don't think this was because of the airplane, the cherokee is a great trainer). The no and partial flap thing helped him out along with an occasional engine out approach in the pattern. One thing with the Pipers as you may have noticed is they can be heavier on the controls. I certainly agree with bobbysamd about trimming and controlling airspeed on final. You are likely thinking you have the yoke far enough back to land judging by the force required, however there is more travel left in the yoke and that little bit can be accessed by more trim making it easier to pull back. Also, if your plane happens to have electric trim, try holding nose up electric trim as you flare to help you out. I haven't seen a cherokee with a very fast moving electric trim. Just another thought to add to the bag of tricks.

 

[nosehair]

Re: Re: LANDING TECH-TIPS (add to the above information)

Oh no, here we go again.

I see someone has heartburn about the old "pitch to the airspeed, power to the altitude" line....
Me too! You are early enough in your training to , maybe, not get sucked into that black hole. If you develop the habit of pitching to the airspeed on final, when you have heat thermals on final, you will have some days when you "just cain't git down".
When energy from the sun is transferred to our airplane via thermals, that energy has to be used somewhere. If you are in level flight, and you get an updraft, a slight increase in altitude, do you power back? Do you "power to the altitude"? No, you probably don't. You "pitch to the altitude", and allow the airspeed to increase a little. If the airspeed icrease is too much, you power back a little. The same is true on approaches. Normal approaches, that is, when your final approach airspeed is at or above max L/D. Below that speed, as in short field approaches, yes, you power to the altitude and pitch to the airspeed. But that is NOT a normal approach.
Believe me: if you pitch the nose down and aim it at the numbers, and KEEP pitching to the altitude(glideslope), and power back or up to control airspeed, you will consistantly make better, more stabilized approaches.

Try the flare in two parts: Keep the approach speed and glidepath down to about tree-top, or hanger-top height, then apply just enough elevator back pressure to LEVEL the nose with the runway. Keep it level momentarily as the speed bleeds off. Your power is idle. As the speed bleeds off, and you are looking at the far end of the runway down the centerline, as you see the airplane sinking down into the runway, try to imagine you are trying to FLOAT the airplane down the entire length of the runway. When it runs out of flying speed it will land - nose high, on the mains. KEEP THAT WHEEL BACK -just like the space shuttle landing. Slowly, as speed drops off ease the nose-wheel down to "land" the nose-wheel. Keep your eyes on that centerline and keep steering with your rudder and keep elevator back-pressure on the elevator to keep excessive pressure off the nose-wheel strut, and keep that aileron cross-wind control in while you steer this machine straight down the centerline on roll-out. Apply smooth, even braking to effect a smooth turn-off and look over at the big, toothy grin on your instructor's face.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude.

vs

Power for airspeed, pitch for altitude.

Two different ways of thinking about the same problem.

Which is right? I dunno in all cases but...

* In my 7ac Aeronca champ its pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. And this is for sure cause any pitching up has a dramatic effect on airspeed and very little effect on altitude (or glide path).

* Hawker 800xp= power for speed, pitch for glide path.

In reality pitch power and airspeed are all intertwined but if you need to break it down into sayings... I believe it depends on the aircraft you are flying.

Draggy under-powered airplanes are the ones that fit the pitch for airspeed rule.

Clean overpowered airplanes- the opposite.

In either case though you take a scenario where on final you are on speed but high:

1. Decide you are high and figure "I better reduce power to get down". As you do that you'd better lower your nose if you want to maintain speed.

2. Decide you are high and figure "I better lower the nose to get down". As you do that you'd better reduce power if you want to maintain speed.

So its all pretty much the same thing isn't it?

 

[JJJ]

When I had students that were having trouble with landing and flaring I would take them to a long runway and have them fly a normal approach, but instead of landing they would add power and try to get as low as possible with out touching down. It helped them with the depth perception and controlling the airplane in ground effect. After a few of these, all you had to do was reduce power and settle onto the runway.

It is the hardest part of the Private training. Most students struggle a little bit with the landings, until one lesson it just clicks.

Hang in there, you're doing fine.

 

[Toy Soldier]

The PTS simply mentions "pitching for the correct attitude and adjusting power as necessary".

After that, it's a matter of technique. It also becomes as simple as choosing one of the following options:

1. Adjust the pitch attitude and then use power to control glideslope.

or;

2. Adjust the pitch attitude and then use power to control airspeed.


The bottom line is to maintain a steady, controlled approach - that's it! It requires a combination of pitching and power.

I am sure that we can beat this up all day about "which is better". As we used to say in the Army, "Everyone has their own technique - just don't violate doctrine". The PTS doctrine says "pitching for the correct attitude and adjusting power as necessary". This means a GOOD LANDING, in the end!

As far as my primary preference in technique goes, I am always successful in teaching "troubled students" how to land when fellow instructors use the "other" technique while I watch their students bounce all over the runway upon landing. It's all about "application" at that point - whichever technique you subscribe to.

Also, other CFI's send their students to me when they have trouble landing. My "black hole" technique works!

Seriously...
A student needs to use all of the techniques listed together to make a good landing.
One of the techniques alone will not make a student into a good "lander".

And Sctt@NJA and JJJ hit on some good points as well. "Basically, we do what we gotta do" to make it work. Each scenerio can and is different and requires combinations of the above techniques to work out.

 

[SammyG]

Sorry I can't help you much here. I was the same way with landings when I first started out. I just got better at it the more I did it, I can't really explain what my "secret" is. I just learned how to "feel it" down onto the numbers.

I was really surprised with my landing during my recent IFR checkride, one of my smoothest ever. It's always a plus to hear the Pilot Examiner say in a pleasantly surpised voice "NICE landing!"

Just keep workin' on 'em and you'll be fine.

 

[bigD]

People here are giving a lot of good advice, and it sounds like you're doing a good job of setting the plane up on final. To be honest, I don't think there are any sure-fire hints at that point. You'll just develop the "picture" after awhile, and it'll all be automatic from there. Give it time - you'll get it.

 

[hammer]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I flew monday and today and what a difference! Today was my best by far. I nailed my approach speed almost everytime and that made a big difference, I also focused more to the end of the runway and just kept flying the plane until it touched down. My instructor was very impressed with the way I handled the plane. Of course they were not all perfect but I did grease a couple of landings. I just wanted to thank everyone who took time to respond with advice and encouragement it really helped alot. I'll let you know when I solo.

 

[Toy Soldier]

Great Job! Keep plugging at it...

 

[BoDEAN]

The more you practice, the quicker it will come.
You will be working on perfecting landings your whole life. Just one of the fun/great challanges we do when we fly.

 

[kabz]

The biggest help I ever got was being told to break down landing into the following three parts :

1) Final approach
- get airspeed right (lookup the POH), and TRIM it
- get a really good look round, and anticipate transition height

2) Transition
- with gentle back PRESSURE
- level off at an appropriate height above the runway

3) Landing
- gently reduce power
- maintain a levelish attitude
- maintain the centreline and straighten out if necessary
- be patient, wait for the sink
- hold the nose off

Funnily enough, no one had ever broken it down like this before (I already had my private rating) and having three distinct phases made it a LOT easier to get it right every time.

I think the main point that made the above useful to me, were forcing me to look around on final to judge my transition height correctly, and to split the level-off and power to idle into two steps, which makes it easier to get the level off just right. At that point you can pull the power off and move your view to medium far ahead, ready for judging your sink and hold-off.

In practice, it all flows together really well, and my landing consistency and confidence improved a fair bit.