HELP....flight academy???

[iriefeet]

Yes this is a nother little or no-timer looking for free information. I'm new to this, so please go easy on me. I have read some of the threads out there, and visited a few academy's and I find myself in worse a position than I did before I started my research. The dreaded gulfstream was looking good before I spoke to some people and read the responses in this web site. Obviously I am looking for the most bang for the buck, and the best way to an aviation career. Basically when I have to start paying off my loans, after training, I want to make sure that I have the best chance for being hired.
I have visited pan am, comair, and gulfstream. Right now I am between pan am and gstream....leaning towards pan am. Any info from people who are in the industry...not selling the schools..or bashing them...would be greatly apreciated.
Please help.....

 

[iriefeet]

miltary

I am also not opposed to the military, if I am sure I will be a pilot after I sign up....

 

[bobbysamd]

College, FlightSafety and Mesa

Do you have a degree? If not, you might consider earning a B.S. in a flight program and/or other field at a college that is tied in with flight training. I'm one of the apparent minority here who likes an Aeronautical Science degree. You'll need a four-year degree in something to be competitive and you will need it eventually.

While you're in the Florida mindset, try checking out FlightSafety Academy in Vero. I worked there ten years ago. It offers a good, and expensive, program. I will vouch for the program. Some of the high quality personnel with whom I worked are still there. FSI would be a direct competitor to Pan Am and Comair.

Another idea is Mesa Airlines Pilot Development. I worked there, too. I did not care for the company at all but I liked the program. You earn a two-year degree in Aviation Technology and all your ratings. The degree is from an accredited junior college, meaning that you should be able to transfer most, if not all, of your credits to a four-year school. The real deal for grads is the possibility of interviewing with Mesa Airlines at 300 hours. A program like this is a sort of double-edged sword, though. You earn your ratings but not a CFI, so if you're hired but don't go to class right away and are placed in a hiring pool, you're stuck for work. Not too many places hire fresh, 250-300-hour pilots without CFIs, so you might find that you will have to earn your CFI, and spend more money, to work and keep flying. Comair grads have to get their CFIs, so they have a fallback plan.

I would say two things about Gulfstream, in this order: (1) Get as much input as possible about the place, its ramifications and all that its ramifications imply. A good place to start is this message board. (2) After receiving input, consider your decision about going there very carefully. We've had quite a few discussions about Gulfstream, including comments from one or two disaffected Gulfstream types.

Military is a great choice if you can find a slot. You will get great training. It takes some ability to get through UPT and fashion a military career. The airlines know that and like it. The military requires a commitment of many years, but at the end you will get to go to the head of the hiring line. Military pilots are one of the best airline job networks around. You have to remember, though, that your membership in the military is your career and flying is your job. Leaving the military for full-time flying will be a career change.

Above all, choose your source of training carefully. Take the career consultants' spiels with a big grain of salt. Some of them can make you feel completely unworthy and beg to be let in, when the truth is you only need to write a check to be admitted.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your choice.

 

[PCL_128]

I will always think that the military is the best way to go. Unfortunately, my very bad vision prevented me from getting a pilot slot, so here I am on the civilian side. If the mil is a valid option for you, I would definitely consider it. It's a big commitment, but you can't beat the quality of trng and the opportunities at the majors will really open up for you when you leave the military.

As for the civilian side of things, here's what I think. Just like you I toured all the big flight academies in FLA and talked to lots of marketing people at these schools. Everything they tell you is utter BS. Nobody is going to get you a job like they say. Even a guaranteed job as a CFI at their own school is very hard to come by nowdays. FSI is a good program, but I don't really think that they produce better pilots than any of the other schools. It's really all about how much effort you will put into it. The school really doesn't make that much of a difference. That's why I tell everyone to go to a local FBO. If you study hard the trng will be just as good, but for a fraction of the price. Think long and hard before giving any of your money to these big name flight schools.

As for Gulfscream, avoid it as best you can. Don't listen to their marketing people, don't visit the academy again, don't have anything to do with them. They will only seduce you with their so-called "Jet-Bridge Program" and then charge you up the a$$ for mediocre instruction and you will still probably not get a job at the end. I used to think the 'stream was a great place, but things have really gone downhill the last couple of years.

P.S. As Bobby said, a degree is a big thing to consider. I'm working on mine now through internet classes, but if you want to get your degree while you do your flight trng there are many colleges that offer aviation degree programs. I think ERAU is overpriced, but there are many others to consider. Look into it.

 

[CFI'er]

Necessary information left out of your original post. What you is your age, and do you have any college experience? Will you be disciplined enough to take college courses using the Internet or will you need to enroll in a traditional campus environment?

bobbysamd had the right response: “Do you have a degree? If not, you might consider earning a B.S. in a flight program and/or other field at a college that is tied in with flight training. I'm one of the apparent minority here who likes an Aeronautical Science degree. You'll need a four-year degree in something to be competitive and you will need it eventually.”

I totally agree with bobbysamd in getting a 4-year college degree. It will be required to fly in the major’s, for sure, and a few of the regional airlines require a 4-year degree if you have low flight time.

Lets start with your age and college experience and we can help you. Otherwise, posters are just guessing as to what is the best path to you future career in the airlines. It won’t be EASY OR CHEAP. I, for one, do not agree with the FBO/CFI, doing it the hard way and paying your dues line of thought.

 

[iriefeet]

thanks....more info

Hey guys, thanks for your reply's and info.
Pcl_128, philiplane, cfi'er, and bobbysamd, I appreciate your responses and info. Sorry I left out my current situation. I am 24 and graduated from a liberal arts college over a year ago.(business minor international affairs major) This is why I am considering going to an aviation academy.
The military does sound like a more than viable option, my only consern would be signing up, and then being told I have to peel potatoes for 5 years. The air national guard may be an option. Again anyone who has been down this path or going down it with an input please reply. Thanx again, Luke

 

[CFI'er]

Don't know where you received the information on total time with the military if you go sky pilot. It is a 10 year or 8 year signup for sure. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Air Force and Army requires min. of 8, the Navy/Marines/Coast Guard require min. of 10 years for going through flight training military style. FLY Navy

 

[naviator]

Ari-Ben Aviator (www.aribenaviator.com) in Fort Pierce, FL.

25 000 dollars: multi-private, multi-instrument, multi-commercial, single comm.-add on, MEI, CFI, CFII! (200 hours of twin time included in program!)

Great school, but more importantly good instructors!

Good luck!

 

[bobbysamd]

A more important concern than K.P.

Originally posted by iriefeet
[M]y only consern would be signing up, and then being told I have to peel potatoes for 5 years . . . .

I'd be d@mn sure that I can meet the physical requirements, i.e. height and vision. I had a female zoomie as a student who told me she was washed out because she was too short to reach the controls! She became an AWACS controller. I had a male zoomie who was a he11 of a pilot. He wasn't sent to UPT for the same reason (he really was short). He worked in some engineering section at Tinker.

Vision is a given. I hear mixed stories here about the military's willingness to accept less than 20/20, even after eye surgery.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[iriefeet]

thanx...military?...ari-ben?

thanks again to all those who replied.
I'm 5'8" 150-155, 20-20 or better vision, I don't know if any of you know if thta meets military requirments. I'm not sure about the 8-10 year commitment, but I was thinking abouth the air national guard, or a navy equivalent...if their is one. .....also some one mentioned ari - ben....anyone here positive or negatives abouthis school. ...
again I really appreciate your responses and info.

Also, someone also mentioned that the airforce will pay for your training at embry...if you sign up, any more info on this... thanx again
Luke

 

[northmountain]

Good replies. I would add: Concentrate on the instructor not necessarily the school. I know great instructors at the academy levels and the FBO world. I also have seen sub-par at both.

Don't be impressed with the number of hours an instructor has flown. Sometimes 300 hour CFIs make excellent instructors. They want to develop a good base of students so it is in their best interest to work hard with each student. And those 300 hour CFIs usually have a mentor (who can also be a great benefit to you).

Sure, with 25,000 hours, a high time flight instructor must be doing something right. In any case, you need to make this observation: Are they really into you? If they just want to "kick the tires" and fly or if they charge you brief time from the point they see the whites of your eyes to the time you leave (and all the coffee breaks inbetween), look elsewhere.

Cost: Yep the academies cost alot more. What do you get for it? The training and procedures are standardized, the aircraft are really well-maintained (compare Flight Safety--Nice aircraft!---to places like Comair) and a large number of the students go to the airlines, and business aviation (great networking opportunities). There is alot of overhead at these academies that you, in the end, pay for. Those full page ads in the flight mags must cost a bundle.

You can usually get student loans to pay for the training at the larger schools. I do not believe the same is true for the mom and pop schools. But you might be able to scrape 25K together for the FBO. It may be a little difficult to come up with 45k to 80k.

FlightSafety has a pay for training program set up with ASA. Good program, but it too costs big. 31K in addition to the 40k (excluding CFI/CFII) that you'll spend getting your ratings. I know several people who went thru the program successfully and are on the line now. Remember, it's not a "money back if not completely satisfied" type of program. If your instrument skills are not top notch, then forgetaboutit.

I am leary of schools that ram loads of info down your throat then 2 months later say "ta da" you are now a commercial pilot. It shouldn't take 5 years of continuous study, but these 60 day programs seem a little absurd to me.

In the end, be wary of marketing hype. Talk to grads of the programs. If they were happy with the prgram then see if their instructor is still teaching. If someone bad mouths a school, sit back and try to determine if it was the instructor at the school or if it was something fundamentally wrong with the program at the school.

 

[morph]

I COULD USE SOME ADVICE TOO

I'm kinda in the same position as the original poster. I'm currently attending LeTourneau University working on my B.S. in professional flight. The problem is I don't know if this is where I really want to be. This is my second semester and I find this degree to be a real pain in my a##. First of all, even though I get my degree I will only have around 300 hrs when I graduate. As far as the flight school goes I find it really difficult. I don't know if it’s because of this school or just me. I'm a hard worker but didn’t realize I would spend 95% of my day on my classes and that’s a real percentage. I wake up at 5 every morning and don’t get to sleep until 12 midnight. Full day full of work. I'm not complaining but for only 300 hrs flight my entire college career sounds unfair. I'm currently in flight science 1 (ground private) and it's kicking me good. I’m passing and all but its like they want us to retain all this info and at the same time remember every single detail. Back home friends told me ground school was easy. I don’t know. I was thinking about leaving college for an army program called woft but received some negative feedback from a few people on this forum, which kinda changed my mind. I still want the military though. Should I just tough out the next 3 years and receive my degree with all my ratings and go military then, or should I leave LeTourneau and find an alternate route to the flight sit (either another college or army woft)? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[100LL... Again!]

#1

Unless you are made out of money, spend as little as you can as long as you get QUALITY instruction. Local FBO;s can be good. You can also make a lot of contacts that you might not make if you are just one of dozens of students at an academy. Some small FBOs have really great CFI's.


#2

Realize that you are probably not going to make much money for a while in the current state of the industry. If you plan to use loans, are you ready to carry that debt for maybe 5 years at possibly disadvantageous rates. This point is not thought out well by many. They get their ratings quick, but make $500/mo payments for years. Interest is CANCER to your finances.
This is another point for the smaller school.


#3

Do not automatically sign up for the program where you do your instrument in a twin and then get your multi commercial first.
This works okay for people with lost of cash.

Yes, you need twin time. BUT, why not get that time as a multi CFI. I have personally paid for only about 20 hours of multi time out of 4000TT. Everyting else was MEI time until I got my freight job. Saved a fortune. Think about it.

My recommendation:

Private C-172 or equiv.
Instrument C-172 or equiv.
Comm C-172 or equiv. for maneuvers
C-172RG or equiv. for 10 required hours of complex
CFI Same as Commercial
CFII C-172

Multi Add-on Duchess, seminole
MEI Same


Yeah, you'll be low timewith little multi, but you'll have planty of time to CFI your way up to hiring mins by training others.

Good luck, and kudos on looking for advice before throwing your cash away somewhere bad. Too many unfortunate pilots have been burned.

Good luck

 

[bobbysamd]

Re: I COULD USE SOME ADVICE TOO

I'm kinda in the same position as the original poster. I'm currently attending LeTourneau University working on my B.S. in professional flight. The problem is I don't know if this is where I really want to be. This is my second semester and I find this degree to be a real pain in my a##. First of all, even though I get my degree I will only have around 300 hrs when I graduate . . . .

Is this your first year of college? Well, college can be tough the first year. Your professors really load you down if you take a full load. The approach to the academics is different than high school. The lifestyle is different. It can be hard living and studying in the dorms.

People who scoff at getting the degree don't realize that the piece of paper proves much more than book learning. Getting the degree proves you can handle demanding academics and manage time. You need both abilities to deal with advanced professional aviation.

No matter where you train, you will end up only with about 300 hours. That's time it takes to produce a new professional pilot with all the ratings. It's the same at every aviation college, e.g. Riddle, UND, wherever. It's the same at FBOs and schools like FSI and Comair. I know that LeTourneau has an excellent reputation; moreover, an important aspect of aviation colleges are their internships and the contacts you can make from them.

I have a few more hours in the logbook of life than you and wish I had done a bunch of things differently, especially regarding aviation. Therefore, my .02 advice to you is to approach it with enthusiasm. You'll be glad you did.

 

[northmountain]

I think 100LL is right on. Two comments: 1. on getting your college degree and (2) pay for training type programs.

While earning your ratings at a local FBO, you may want to consider getting a degree in something other than aviation. I know several people who, on their days off from flight instructing, worked as either nurses, accountants, or editors. The one or two days a week they worked doing these jobs is what really paid the bills. An aviation degree is not going to afford you that type of flexibility. If the airlines are your goal then consider that you will likely get furloughed at least once in your career (and that furlough may last a couple of months or a couple years). Well, these folks could easily go back to their professions and flight instruct on the side.

Now, as far as the expense of pay for training programs. 100LL is right, you'll be paying 500 bucks (and that's on the low side) per month for DECADES. But a bridge program gets you into an airline (like FSI's ASA program) fast. And in this business it's all about seniority. People I know who went through this program have 2 years of seniority over me. I decided to flight instruct. No regrets. I believe I am a much better pilot because of it. But another 1,000 hours of flight instructing is not going to teach me anything about turbines, FMS, autopilots, autothrottles, glass cockpits, flight directors, or working as a crew in a Part 121 environment. And those guys have two years of built-in-protection when the next furlough hits.

 

[100LL... Again!]

A while back, someone posted, asking what their buddy should do who washed out of sim at his airline. He got to the airline at low timw through a bridge preogram. Now what?

Game over for now. Other bridge preograms have their own candidates. Other airlines have higher minimums.

Brutal rality: You're gonna have to be a CFI ANYWAY, but now a poorer one with a 121 bust on your record. It is a gamble, no matter what anyone says. You'll probably make it. However, some of the best sticks in this business have choked in the sim here and there.

If you get hired with real quals, most companies will give you a little more wiggle room. Why? Because THEY have invested a lot of money in you. They now have a financial interest in your success. If YOU paid for training, then they can say g'bye, and at very little cost.

Northernmountain: You have my respect. Unfortunately, it won't get you much. But you have YOUR respect as well. I couldn't live with being a 'trainee' FO.

You bring up good points about glass, fms, crew coordination,etc. You know what though? That stuff is easily learned if you are of average intelligence. You know what most guys struggle with? IFR procedures. Low timers are not going to have exposure to the IFR environment. However, on the other hand, a 1200 hr CFI that only did primary students ain't much better on th IFR end. Airmanship should be better, though.

 

[morph]

Thanks

I understand exactly where you all are coming from. I am thankful to be able to attend a university and even get to attempt this degree and receive my ratings but it's like I won't have a life for the next 3 years while im doing it. That’s why I have thought about the military but know they want that degree. I'm also grateful for my financial situation. To make it simple you can say I didn't grow up to rich, therefore my financial aid has paid for everything. You can see why I don't want to screw this thing up. It's one thing to pay for college and fail and it's a total opposite when the majority of it is paid and you don't cut it. I guess you can just say I'm a worrywart. So 300 hrs is about how much time other institutes will give over a college career? That's good to know considering I was really thinking about leaving. I thought I'd have a better chance at a career by going to Spartan or some other flight school. What about the woft program should I still keep that as an option? Thanks.

 

[iriefeet]

thanks again

Hey Thanks again guys for all the replies and insite. I think I am going to take the advise of the majority of the people out there and stick with my local FBO. Beverly flight center in ma. One of the questions that remains is that I don't have $25K to drop at the school. I was wondering if anyone had advice on how to get financial aid or loans to be accepted at a smaller fbo. Right now I dont even have the cash for my private. ??????
thanks again

 

[100LL... Again!]

See if you can get a Sally Mae Loan. inda like a student loan, but works for non-accredited school. Ask your bank and FBO.

Other hint plow through each rating quickly, then build up cash or reduce debt while studying for the next one. Keeps the momentum up during training which can save you tons.

 

[iriefeet]

thanks

Hey thanks, I'll give it a try. I just called the flight center though and they said I should go through a local community college. But that requires an associates of wich I don't need. But I'll talk to sally mae and my local bank. Thanks again, Luke

 

[Timebuilder]

While I think that the current system of degrees is something of a scam, I recommmend you spend at least two years as a serious student. US history, math, a science, literature, and some basic writing are minimal critera, IMHO, to be a functional adult. Unfortunately, these things are rarely treated as important subjects in the public schools.

I would also seriously research the military option. If I had to do this over again, I would try that path.

 

[cyork25]

Take a look at TAB EXPRESS, i'm a student there and it really is a good program. The instructors are really great there, most are airline pilots or ex-airline pilots. If you have any questions pm me

 

[B190Captain]

Bobbysamd,

What years were you at FSI?

I was in 3-93 to 12-93. Were u there?

 

[SpocksBeard]

Spend as little as possible! Out of 300 multi I only paid for around 45 of it. The rest I built as an instructor. You just have to fly at the right flight school to get the multi time. At the university flight programs you shouldn't have anymore than 300 total at the end of a 4 year program or else you bought too much. A commercial pilot should get paid to fly and not vice versa.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSI

Bobbysamd,

What years were you at FSI?

I was in 3-93 to 12-93. Were u there?

I just missed you. I was there from August of 1991 to October of 1992.

PS-Great avatar!

 

[Bouyer]

checkout ATA

airline training academy has several great programs to choose from I have checked out alot of schools before I made my choice on ata check them out at www.flyhere.com

p.m. me with any questions

 

[Beech1900]

My 2 cents

Well i'm gona put my two cent about your situation. I was in the same boat as you are my friend. I first started out with comair and man i'm glad i left. Um after i got my ppl i took some time off searching for a good school. I went and checked out ATP, panam, FSI, Sierra. I also was looking at a budget to be able to pay after my training. I was leaning to PAN AM but the budget was to much i could'nt afford it. FSI was my number one choice but the money is what hold me back. I'm now attending GIA and i made a good choice. GREAT CFI"s which was my main concern, and they been up for a while and all F/O seemed to be where all of us want to be. Um everyone has there opinion so hope i helped you out.

P.S I think Pan Am lost its 141 cert i don't know for sure but do check it out before you attend.

 

[Beech1900]

Re: checkout ATA

airline training academy has several great programs to choose from I have checked out alot of schools before I made my choice on ata check them out at www.flyhere.com

p.m. me with any questions

ATA JUST SCREWED OVER THE STUDENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY SHUT DOWN.

 

[B190Captain]

more like getscrewedhere.com.

Hope it works out for them.

 

[embdrvr]

Many public community colleges and state universities have excellent flight/degree programs. I've personally flown with several pilots that all attended the same public university and they all impressed me. Don't rule out your local JC either. I've flown with some folks that went through those programs also and they do a great job.
The other advantage is that public schools are seldom shutting down and stealing tens of thousands of dollars. Don't fall for the BS of a "guaranteed job." Chances are it wouldn't be a job worth having if you didn't earn the right to be there.