skyking1976
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skyking1976 said:There are 3478 reasons as to why this is justified. Or have you forgotten already...
SK
I have not forgotten and never will. The trouble is that I'd be happy betting my life savings on the fact that the 3 guys taken out by our helo had zero to do with 9/11. Osama and his boys are still on the loose.
I'm not some pacifist lets-all-take-a-toke hippy either - I just think that the way to fight these guys isn't with conventional means. It isn't about every militant in Iraq or Ahghanistan polishing their 1980's American-supplied weapons, its about intelligence, about turning the tides in the thinking of young Arab men who think we're the devil. Attacking people here and there with our vast military might won't change what is in the hearts of these guys... it'll just piss em off more!
anyways, sorry, back to aviation
skyking1976
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Immelman said:
No apology necessary. It just seems our stratigic methods differ. IMHO, the time for intel gathering and covert reconaissance ops was before 9/11. Perhaps a looser leash on our spies would have prevented the WTC attacks or put us in a position to preemptively remove Bin Laden from the hierarchy of Al-Qaida. In any case, hindsight is 20/20 and an act of war has been committed.
The Taliban has been ousted from Afghanistan, Hussein has been captured and the terrorist community (and those who support them) has less leadership, for now. The problem with removing terrorist leaders and dictators from power is that other ones pop up in their place. As long as a country or militia is ruled by a religious entity, there will always be "holy wars" all in the name of righteousness.
I, however, am not content to let terrorists roam the globe, plotting to destroy those who value their freedom. This war was a long time coming and I, for one, hope that we accomplish everything necessary to rid the world of the fanatical organizations that promote terrorism.
SK
CL60
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gun stats
They were ploughing a field at night which may indicate they were poppy farming... a big revenue source for the bad guys.
Here's some info on a 30mm chain gun of the type used on some attack helos like the Apache.
http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/apm230.htm
http://www.atk.com/productsPrecision/descriptions/products/GunSys/30mmChainGun.htm
The Super Cobra carries:
(1) M197 20mm cannon.
Used primarily against soft-skinned and lightly armored targets and for self-protection.
Three-barreled, externally powered, hydraulically driven turret. Maximum capacity: 750 rounds; rate of fire: 730 rounds/minute.
Maximum range: 2,000 meters; maximum effective range: 1,500-1,700 meters.
Ordnance: M789 HE, dual purpose ammunition.
http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/m-197/m-197.htm
With ranges of 4000 meters and 2000 meters respectively, you would never even know they were targeting you. The lesson here is... if the guy next to you turns into raspberry mist, put your friggin' hands up in the air. Also, do not get the US pissed off at you.
They were ploughing a field at night which may indicate they were poppy farming... a big revenue source for the bad guys.
Here's some info on a 30mm chain gun of the type used on some attack helos like the Apache.
http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/apm230.htm
http://www.atk.com/productsPrecision/descriptions/products/GunSys/30mmChainGun.htm
The Super Cobra carries:
(1) M197 20mm cannon.
Used primarily against soft-skinned and lightly armored targets and for self-protection.
Three-barreled, externally powered, hydraulically driven turret. Maximum capacity: 750 rounds; rate of fire: 730 rounds/minute.
Maximum range: 2,000 meters; maximum effective range: 1,500-1,700 meters.
Ordnance: M789 HE, dual purpose ammunition.
http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/m-197/m-197.htm
With ranges of 4000 meters and 2000 meters respectively, you would never even know they were targeting you. The lesson here is... if the guy next to you turns into raspberry mist, put your friggin' hands up in the air. Also, do not get the US pissed off at you.
CL60
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Terrorists
Immelman wrote,
I'm sure our crews in the field don't fly around sanctioning targets without being pretty sure about them first... Especially when they have to wait for permission from JAG lawyers to fire and its all on videotape.
As far as thinking that our efforts will just 'piss em off more'---that kind of thinking is what gave these thugs power to begin with. That kind of thinking is exactly what they want to ellicit from you. You think we have stirred a hornet's nest? They have been attacking us for well over a decade. They have stirred a hornet's nest.
You are right about what is in their hearts though. They hate us from their very souls which only strengthens the argument to kill them.
Immelman wrote,
I'm sure our crews in the field don't fly around sanctioning targets without being pretty sure about them first... Especially when they have to wait for permission from JAG lawyers to fire and its all on videotape.
As far as thinking that our efforts will just 'piss em off more'---that kind of thinking is what gave these thugs power to begin with. That kind of thinking is exactly what they want to ellicit from you. You think we have stirred a hornet's nest? They have been attacking us for well over a decade. They have stirred a hornet's nest.
You are right about what is in their hearts though. They hate us from their very souls which only strengthens the argument to kill them.
Re: Terrorists
Absolutely true. This type of thinking is called appeasement and it is the cornerstone of left wing philosophy when it comes to foreign affairs, particularly matters that involve threats such as terrorism.
I can think of three islamo-facists who aren't "pissed off" anymore...
CL60 said:
Absolutely true. This type of thinking is called appeasement and it is the cornerstone of left wing philosophy when it comes to foreign affairs, particularly matters that involve threats such as terrorism.
I can think of three islamo-facists who aren't "pissed off" anymore...
CL60
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Open your eyes
Gearup727,
If you are reffering to my post:
Open your eyes. The statement,
Gearup727,
If you are reffering to my post:
Open your eyes. The statement,
, is a supposition... a possibiliity... not known as fact... etc... That fact, accompanied by the way it fits with the rest of the thread does not accuse all drug dealers of terrorism. You were the only one to bring that up.
kevdog
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Please explain how our aggression in Iraq has anything to do with the 9/11 Terrorist attacks? Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden are/were bitter enemies. This video is nothing more than footage of our "Preventive War" tactics in Iraq that the U.S. would consider war crimes if our enemies were at the controls.
"Preventive War" is a funny term. When Saddam Hussein was at his peak of "Evil-Doings" the U.S. gave him full support, putting him in power, and even supplied him with the weapons and means to go full-steam ahead. His atrocities in the 50's, the 60's, the 70's and the 80's were ok with us. U.S. backed atrocities in Turkey, Nicuargua, Columbia, and Venezuela to name a few, were also ok, because they supported our interests.
I believe our attack on Iraq has a little more to do with control of energy resources that Europe and Japan to name a few, rely on so we can continue to dominate the world like we have been doing since WWII. We tend to do this in a fashion that is rather sick as some posts prior have noticed. The fact that most Americans don't actually see what we do keeps everyone at ease on the homefront.
What I think is ironic about what we are doing in Iraq is we're commiting our forces to a region for a long-term duration as our actions are increasing terrorist recruiting around the world and as North Korea has showed the world, WMD are the only defense to the "American Threat" as a lot of the world calls it. Now all these crazy countries want to create WMD as a defense, sorta like how the U.S. stockpiled our own form of WMD (thousands of Nuclear Missles) as a defense/deterent to our cold war enemy.
You have to have an enemy for a war. Just curious, were any of the 9/11 hijackers Iraqis? I thought most of them were from Saudia Arabia. Why aren't we bombing and killing those towelheads in order to fullfill our deserved revenge from the horrors of the 9/11 attacks. Strange.
Revenge is sweet, isn't it?
U.S. "Preventive War" can have only a target that is virtually defenseless, important enough to be worth the trouble, and that can be portrayable as the ultimate evil and an imminent threat to our survival.
Iraq had all 3 qualities, but any idiot in the world world agree that North Korea was/is more of a real threat, than Iraq...they just don't have the defenslessness, and energy resources. Our enemies understand this quite well.
This is how the world is, what can we do? I guess whatever God is more powerful will win.
"Preventive War" is a funny term. When Saddam Hussein was at his peak of "Evil-Doings" the U.S. gave him full support, putting him in power, and even supplied him with the weapons and means to go full-steam ahead. His atrocities in the 50's, the 60's, the 70's and the 80's were ok with us. U.S. backed atrocities in Turkey, Nicuargua, Columbia, and Venezuela to name a few, were also ok, because they supported our interests.
I believe our attack on Iraq has a little more to do with control of energy resources that Europe and Japan to name a few, rely on so we can continue to dominate the world like we have been doing since WWII. We tend to do this in a fashion that is rather sick as some posts prior have noticed. The fact that most Americans don't actually see what we do keeps everyone at ease on the homefront.
What I think is ironic about what we are doing in Iraq is we're commiting our forces to a region for a long-term duration as our actions are increasing terrorist recruiting around the world and as North Korea has showed the world, WMD are the only defense to the "American Threat" as a lot of the world calls it. Now all these crazy countries want to create WMD as a defense, sorta like how the U.S. stockpiled our own form of WMD (thousands of Nuclear Missles) as a defense/deterent to our cold war enemy.
You have to have an enemy for a war. Just curious, were any of the 9/11 hijackers Iraqis? I thought most of them were from Saudia Arabia. Why aren't we bombing and killing those towelheads in order to fullfill our deserved revenge from the horrors of the 9/11 attacks. Strange.
Revenge is sweet, isn't it?
U.S. "Preventive War" can have only a target that is virtually defenseless, important enough to be worth the trouble, and that can be portrayable as the ultimate evil and an imminent threat to our survival.
Iraq had all 3 qualities, but any idiot in the world world agree that North Korea was/is more of a real threat, than Iraq...they just don't have the defenslessness, and energy resources. Our enemies understand this quite well.
This is how the world is, what can we do? I guess whatever God is more powerful will win.
737 Driver
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What if four years ago the US would have gone after and killed Bin Laden and a crap load of his cronies because they wanted to fly commercial airplanes into the White House, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Center? How many bleeding hearts would have said the US had gone mad? But every armchair QB today says the main reason we are in Iraq is Oil. I don't believe that and I really don't care if any else does. We have one known world tyrant out of a job! Less than 200 years ago we(any big power) would have gone over 'there'(insert country) and killed every person in sight and 'we' could find and put a flag up and call the place our new country. I think any perceived threat should be taken out. We are too nice sometimes.
2 cents
2 cents
Immelman,
You can bet there is more to the story. We don't just go around whacking folks unnecessarily on purpose. For most of you that have never been involved in a war type situation it must be disturbing. To me it is always disturbing to see others killed. On the other hand we didn't start this thing and when it is kill or be killed you have to do what you have to do.
It is pretty easy as a military guy to get hardened to this kind of stuff. It is much easier to live with memories of this when you are not fighting eyeball to eyeball. The guys that do it up close and personal may have lingering problems after their experiences.
As an old Medevac type I witnessed the personal tragedies up close and personal over 1000 times. And we carried both the good guys and the bad guys. I felt bad for all that were injured regardless of which side they were on. In most cases people are just people. It is their governments or religious teachings that have created this deal.
While the video may seem barbaric consider the guys that get tortured by the other side and ultimately die in a long and much more painful way. The fact is that in our country we value life much more than the ones we fight. If we didn't then there would not be anyone disturbed by this type of situation. Let's hope that we always have people that can talk openly about what we are doing. This is what makes our country the best!
My hope is that we can get this situation under control quickly and thereby have less loss of life on both sides.
You can bet there is more to the story. We don't just go around whacking folks unnecessarily on purpose. For most of you that have never been involved in a war type situation it must be disturbing. To me it is always disturbing to see others killed. On the other hand we didn't start this thing and when it is kill or be killed you have to do what you have to do.
It is pretty easy as a military guy to get hardened to this kind of stuff. It is much easier to live with memories of this when you are not fighting eyeball to eyeball. The guys that do it up close and personal may have lingering problems after their experiences.
As an old Medevac type I witnessed the personal tragedies up close and personal over 1000 times. And we carried both the good guys and the bad guys. I felt bad for all that were injured regardless of which side they were on. In most cases people are just people. It is their governments or religious teachings that have created this deal.
While the video may seem barbaric consider the guys that get tortured by the other side and ultimately die in a long and much more painful way. The fact is that in our country we value life much more than the ones we fight. If we didn't then there would not be anyone disturbed by this type of situation. Let's hope that we always have people that can talk openly about what we are doing. This is what makes our country the best!
My hope is that we can get this situation under control quickly and thereby have less loss of life on both sides.
SuperFLUF
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bart
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Well then, I have a suggestion. Enlist now and volunteer for infantry and volunteer for duty in Iraq. You will quickly understand the cause of why s h it like this happens. And you will never let an Apache crew buy beer in the same bar you are in.
As for not pissin' them off more... I want to kill so many of them that they start sending everyone in the US candy and flowers once a week to try to smooth things over.
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Big Duke Six
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Thanks
Thanks SuperFluf.
It helps to have the background from the clip when you watch it. I'll bet for most of these critics here, instead of feeling sick to their stomachs, they now will stand and wave American flags while they watch it. It's great stuff in the proper context!
It also reinforces what we're really up against over there. Here we see it first hand - one minute the gooks are plowing a field and the next they are trying to get the drop on an approaching U.S. convoy.
Thanks SuperFluf.
It helps to have the background from the clip when you watch it. I'll bet for most of these critics here, instead of feeling sick to their stomachs, they now will stand and wave American flags while they watch it. It's great stuff in the proper context!
It also reinforces what we're really up against over there. Here we see it first hand - one minute the gooks are plowing a field and the next they are trying to get the drop on an approaching U.S. convoy.
Although I am peace loving at heart and I did fly "Dustoff" to be technically correct I would "roll hot" on any in Iraq that have been identified as the enemy. The mentality of these folks is to only respect power. We have the power and we will prevail. While helping someone out of a car wreck can be eye opening how about seeing every buddy you ever have had blown away and I mean blown away by fanatics. What you don't experience going to one of these guy flicks is the smell and many other senses that arise when in situations like this. It is still kill or have some of your or someone elses' buddies killed.
There is no loftier purpose than to free a people from brutal oppression which included much, much more than you saw on this video. Baby killings, mother rapes and killings...the list goes on and on. I wish everyone could get a dose of reality. It is sad that humans have to act this way but when we have our own people killed or maimed by these nuts then it is time to take the gloves off. And we have.
The world will be a more peaceful place when all is said and done. We will bring our warriors home and hopefully nurse them back to health from the traumas they have been through.
My thoughts and support are with our guys and gals in harms way. Stay safe over there!
For those who have never fought for it the price of peace can never be known.
There is no loftier purpose than to free a people from brutal oppression which included much, much more than you saw on this video. Baby killings, mother rapes and killings...the list goes on and on. I wish everyone could get a dose of reality. It is sad that humans have to act this way but when we have our own people killed or maimed by these nuts then it is time to take the gloves off. And we have.
The world will be a more peaceful place when all is said and done. We will bring our warriors home and hopefully nurse them back to health from the traumas they have been through.
My thoughts and support are with our guys and gals in harms way. Stay safe over there!
For those who have never fought for it the price of peace can never be known.
Chunk
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Reality Check
My prior, active-duty, and reserve service friends,
Please do not try to understand the more liberal of the species. They don't understand that there is indeed evil in the world. They can not grasp that someone might want to harm us because they're bad or evil....it always has to our fault. In their minds, we're the big bad guys who push everyone around, therefore we deserve what we get. We should feel *sorry* for the guys in the video. They've been pre-judged by us simple-minded military folks that are the whipping dogs of Halliburton and BushCo. We obviously should have waited until they fired at us instead, in order to ensure that they are "individuals with a different perspective" (you can't say 'bad guys'). How dare we, in the name of national security, impose our will on someone else. All nations are equal, and we have no right to think we are any better than these people. Regime change starts at home. Replace the DoD with the DoP (department of peace). Go Dean! Go Kucinich!
*shakes head*
See what happens when you try to understand liberals? They infect your brain with a fog-like virus that prevents rational thought.
Ooh-friggin-rah. Two less bad guys in the world to threaten my brothers in arms.
/rant off
My prior, active-duty, and reserve service friends,
Please do not try to understand the more liberal of the species. They don't understand that there is indeed evil in the world. They can not grasp that someone might want to harm us because they're bad or evil....it always has to our fault. In their minds, we're the big bad guys who push everyone around, therefore we deserve what we get. We should feel *sorry* for the guys in the video. They've been pre-judged by us simple-minded military folks that are the whipping dogs of Halliburton and BushCo. We obviously should have waited until they fired at us instead, in order to ensure that they are "individuals with a different perspective" (you can't say 'bad guys'). How dare we, in the name of national security, impose our will on someone else. All nations are equal, and we have no right to think we are any better than these people. Regime change starts at home. Replace the DoD with the DoP (department of peace). Go Dean! Go Kucinich!
*shakes head*
See what happens when you try to understand liberals? They infect your brain with a fog-like virus that prevents rational thought.
Ooh-friggin-rah. Two less bad guys in the world to threaten my brothers in arms.
/rant off
LJDRVR
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Interesting clip and interesting debate. I'm sure the AH-64 crew followed the ROE perfectly, I mean this is a war and combatants are going to get killed. In this case it was them. Good!
Now, that having been said, I'm gonna piss alot of you off: Watching those soldiers/terrorists/whatever being killed was disturbing. I'm not going to attempt to paraphrase what the lone dissenter on this thread was trying to say, but for me personally, it was, for lack of a better adjective, "disturbing" to see a human being blown apart by 20mm fire. Why is everyone here so quick to label this guy a liberal because he had a normal reaction to witnessing the violent end of life? Moreover, (And flame away fellas) why are the folks on this board with no prior service the ones who seem to have the most vocal, testosteron-laden, bravado-filled personnas when it comes to stuff like this? Geez, if y'all are so gung-ho, why not join-up? There are still plenty of zipperheads left to waste. What's stopping you?
In the meantime, how about showing a bit of maturity and respect for human life?
"Those terrorists don't have any respect for human life. I'm glad we wasted em'!"
I am too! (Truly) However let's try to remeber that this respect for life is precisly what makes us different and try not to label and insult the folks who aren't as big a warrior and ate-up professional soldier as you Monday-morning quarterbacks who never bothered to serve, think you are.
PS. Did you hear the Apache crew "yeah-haaing" it up like Slim Pickens? Neither did I. Two professionals doing an unpleasant but necesary job. Thanks fellas.
Flame away!
Now, that having been said, I'm gonna piss alot of you off: Watching those soldiers/terrorists/whatever being killed was disturbing. I'm not going to attempt to paraphrase what the lone dissenter on this thread was trying to say, but for me personally, it was, for lack of a better adjective, "disturbing" to see a human being blown apart by 20mm fire. Why is everyone here so quick to label this guy a liberal because he had a normal reaction to witnessing the violent end of life? Moreover, (And flame away fellas) why are the folks on this board with no prior service the ones who seem to have the most vocal, testosteron-laden, bravado-filled personnas when it comes to stuff like this? Geez, if y'all are so gung-ho, why not join-up? There are still plenty of zipperheads left to waste. What's stopping you?
In the meantime, how about showing a bit of maturity and respect for human life?
"Those terrorists don't have any respect for human life. I'm glad we wasted em'!"
I am too! (Truly) However let's try to remeber that this respect for life is precisly what makes us different and try not to label and insult the folks who aren't as big a warrior and ate-up professional soldier as you Monday-morning quarterbacks who never bothered to serve, think you are.
PS. Did you hear the Apache crew "yeah-haaing" it up like Slim Pickens? Neither did I. Two professionals doing an unpleasant but necesary job. Thanks fellas.
Flame away!
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CL60
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disturbed
LJDRVR,
It is difficult to tell who has served their country and who has not by simply reading the finite profiles on a message board. Some may have served in other capacities like politics, police, firefighter, etc... in any case, its hard to quantify assumed non-service with a lack of will.
I'm sure however that most people share your feelings about the sanctity of human life. Perhaps Robert E. Lee said it best,
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
Robert E. Lee (1807 - 1870)
LJDRVR,
It is difficult to tell who has served their country and who has not by simply reading the finite profiles on a message board. Some may have served in other capacities like politics, police, firefighter, etc... in any case, its hard to quantify assumed non-service with a lack of will.
I'm sure however that most people share your feelings about the sanctity of human life. Perhaps Robert E. Lee said it best,
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
Robert E. Lee (1807 - 1870)
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LJDRVR
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CL 60,
Yeah, I MAYBE used a little bit more hyperbole than the situation needed. My point was not to deride those who didn't serve, but to point out how calloused our reactions to violence have become. My other observation that I'll attempt to word more clearly here, is that far too many on these boards have a hair trigger response to anybody who doesn't instantly conform to whatever the daily "groupthink" is. Then the name calling begins. As an aside, I've noticed on this and other threads that the loudest hard-core, conservative flag-waving, "shut-up if you don't agree with us you're a liberal" on any matters military comes from those who 'apparently' didn't serve. (You are most certainly correct that one may not be able to tell.)
To the rest of you: Hey, it's a free country. Say what you wish. Young men and women are serving right now to insure you have the right to watch gun camera footage from the privacy of your living room, and then get all excited like some youngster with a new violent video game.
All I'm saying is let's not loose sight of the magnitude of the fact that three human beings died in a most gruesome manner. I'm glad they did, as they were the enemy and we ARE at war, but I don't have to jump up and down about it and take pleasure in the demise of another.
Blue Skies.....
Yeah, I MAYBE used a little bit more hyperbole than the situation needed. My point was not to deride those who didn't serve, but to point out how calloused our reactions to violence have become. My other observation that I'll attempt to word more clearly here, is that far too many on these boards have a hair trigger response to anybody who doesn't instantly conform to whatever the daily "groupthink" is. Then the name calling begins. As an aside, I've noticed on this and other threads that the loudest hard-core, conservative flag-waving, "shut-up if you don't agree with us you're a liberal" on any matters military comes from those who 'apparently' didn't serve. (You are most certainly correct that one may not be able to tell.)
To the rest of you: Hey, it's a free country. Say what you wish. Young men and women are serving right now to insure you have the right to watch gun camera footage from the privacy of your living room, and then get all excited like some youngster with a new violent video game.
All I'm saying is let's not loose sight of the magnitude of the fact that three human beings died in a most gruesome manner. I'm glad they did, as they were the enemy and we ARE at war, but I don't have to jump up and down about it and take pleasure in the demise of another.
Blue Skies.....
Herman Bloom
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