Hawker 700 vs. Sabre 65

[Ultraman]

Hello All,

I've done a search on here and have gotten some good info. However, if there are some folks who have flown both the Hawker 700 and Sabre 65, could you give me the good, bad and ugly? The boss is looking to move up from a Citation 1.

Thank you in advance for the info.

Ultraman

 

[Viffer]

I haven't flown a Hawker but have about four years with a Sabreliner. If your boss is going to go into a jet like that you have to get your own maintanence director. A Sabreliner is a very maint. heavy airplane, and in ours and all the other crews I have talked to not nearly as reliable as it should be, and certainly in another league of maintenance than a Citation. Make sure your boss understands how much more it will take to operate, and how important it will be to have your own guy on the wrenches if you don't already. He will spend way more than the salary of a maint. tech on outside work in the first year with one of those airplanes. They are very nice flying jets, but old and suffering from age related problems and very unreliable components.

 

[Raskal]

haven't flown a Sabre, but I still fly some of my companies 700's, to the pax (with a redone interior) they are the same thing as a straight 8. Slower than a Sabre (and some local water fowl), but from what I hear are much less mx intensive and I have to believe that more parts are avail at various facilities.

I think we actually have one of our 700's for sale...PM me if you want a contact.

 

[cezzna]

I'd try and talk him into a straight citation 5. More expensive than the others but very relaiable, RVSMable, fly high, efficient, not so fast but you wouldn't need your own wrench. It would also be an easy transition for you. Parts availability much better also. I just think there are too many issues with those old airframes. Nobody is flying them anymore for a reason. just my 2 cents.

 

[propsarebest]

Pick the Sabre 65- It's a rocketship, but be sure to find a shop with Sabreliner experience. It can fly CA-Hawaii with no problems. Enjoy the speedbrake!!!

 

[con-pilot]

"It can fly CA-Hawaii with no problems"

Not with me in it.

Now I'm not saying it can't be done, but you'll have to watch the winds really carefully.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Ooooops! You forgot to mention that he should also talk about the much smaller cabin and much less range while he is talking up that citation to the boss. In terms of the easy transition, the Hawker is an extremely easy airplane to fly and the systems are much less complicated that the citation both in ease of use and how they are laid out. And yes, I have time in both.

I'd try and talk him into a straight citation 5. More expensive than the others but very relaiable, RVSMable, fly high, efficient, not so fast but you wouldn't need your own wrench. It would also be an easy transition for you. Parts availability much better also. I just think there are too many issues with those old airframes. Nobody is flying them anymore for a reason. just my 2 cents.

 

[Headwind]

About two years ago we went from a Citation I to a Sabre 65. Our Sabre has low time, was RVSM'ed in 1999, and has most mods or upgrades. About 80% of our maintenance is inhouse. I only know of 3 shops ( 2 in MO & 1 in FL ) that know Sabreliners well. The Sabre 65 has many more systems that require maintenance than the Citation, but our mechanics like working on the Sabre much more than the Citation.
The big Mx on the Citation is the phase 5 due every 36 months. On the Sabre 65 it's a 60 month inspection. Both about the same cost, but not as frequent on the 65. The CAMP cards are much better (and more expensive) than CESCOM for maintenance personel. With CAMP we have maintenance due every month, but it's nothing our Mx guys complain about like they did on the Citation.
The 65 burns more fuel per hour than our C-501, but on all trips we burn less fuel in the Sabre than the C-501 because it's so much faster. At FL400 and ISA +10 we do .80 burning 640 per side. MMO is .83 and if it's not too hot can set off the clacker in cruise at FL360.
Sabreliner Corp. supports the Sabre well. According to the latest survey much better than Cessna or Raytheon.
I have no experience with the Hawler 700, but talking with people, know the Sabre 65 is faster and maintenance cost are less due to the wing inspections on the Hawker. Both aircraft have the same engine and are the same age. Product support is better on the Sabre, but more shops can work on the Hawker. Try to fly both.

HEADWIND

 

[Ultraman]

Thanks, everyone, for all of the informative replies. This is just the type of information I was looking for.

Anyone got any more?

Ultraman

 

[propsarebest]

Did I mention that you'll enjoy the speedbrake??

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Yeah, but...

Did I mention that you'll enjoy the speedbrake??

...can you lift-dump?!!!

 

[propsarebest]

...can you lift-dump?!!!

Ya know, that is one sweet thing about the hs125, we were able to get into some tinya$$ strips cause of that.


Hawker or a 65?? tough choice.

 

[gear_guy]

Did I mention that you'll enjoy the speedbrake??

I'm not sure what you mean. I operated a 65 for a year and our speedbrake was screwed to the fuselage. All we had was spoilers on the throttle quadrant.

 

[propsarebest]

I'm not sure what you mean. I operated a 65 for a year and our speedbrake was screwed to the fuselage. All we had was spoilers on the throttle quadrant.

The 65 that we operated had to be modified to use the speedbrake. It's installed, but not activated. There is (was) a kit from Sabreleiner to do this.

 

[gear_guy]

I can see how that might be fun. If I remember it was about 3' x 3'
Must have dropped like a rock!

 

[SabreFlyR]

I can see how that might be fun. If I remember it was about 3' x 3'
Must have dropped like a rock!

It's also nice to have in icing conditions. Provides the extra drag you need to compensate for for keeping the power up.

And yes with the speed brake open, flaps 10 and gear down we could do some pretty impressive decents into the airport we operated out of just west of Jackson, Wy.