Hawaiian Pilot Throws Off Bankruptcy Trustee... Now That's Ball$y!

[On Your Six]

This guy clearly has some brass cajones! Would you do the same if you were in his position? Read the gutsy move below:



Hawaiian Air pilot throws off bankruptcy trustee
Monday June 28, 3:58 pm ET


SEATTLE, June 28 (Reuters) - Discount air travel is a popular perk for most airline employees, but if you are running a bankrupt carrier, certain restrictions may apply.

Joshua Gotbaum, the trustee overseeing Hawaiian Airlines' reorganization, was thrown off a flight from Honolulu to San Francisco last Thursday by the pilot who said Gotbaum's presence made him uncomfortable.

"The pilot informed Mr. Gotbaum that he wasn't comfortable having him on the plane. They had a brief discussion, but rather than delay the flight, Mr. Gotbaum took another flight," airline spokesman Keoni Wagner said, without elaborating.

Hawaiian, which filed for bankruptcy in March 2003, has posted profits in recent months, helped in part by negotiating reduced airplane lease payments.

Gotbaum has also proposed cutting pilot pension payouts to save money, but last week came up with a $3 million management bonus plan.

Federal policy gives pilots wide discretion to remove passengers or refuse to let them board for safety reasons, but they rarely do so. Wagner said Gotbaum was the only Hawaiian passenger he could remember being booted.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Nice.

Let's see someone do the same to Zander.

 

[7dustfan]

That Rules!!! I would like to shake the hand of the Hawaiian Pilot!!

 

[MW44]

If we had a few thousand more pilots like this guy then this job would still be a top notch profession!

 

[jetops]

MW44 you’re an idiot

If we had a few thousand more pilots like this guy then this job would still be a top notch profession!

You must live on some other planet beside earth to believe that statement you made ... If you’re that dumb to believe that above that statement seek professional help .
I guess you haven figured out that pilots fly planes, management finds the customers and makes sure you still have a plane to fly jacka$$ and get a check every week ...

 

[gear_guy]

Hmmm

I don't have a dog in this fight but.......

Okay.....Is this the old chicken or egg argument. Because it seems to me that without pilots, passengers don't get to their destinations. We could go on and on with this one, but it seems to me the real point is the fact that management wants to cut pilots wages and raise theirs. I guess if they got enough passengers to fly, they would'nt be in this situation. Sounds to me like a raise would be pretty undeserved following your argument.

 

[daysleeper2621]

What a slap in the face to the pilots of Hawaiian. 'Hey Pilots, we need to cut your salaries to help the company restructure' and THEN management turns right around and puts the money in their own pockets and even has the gaul to tell the pilots what they did with their money!! It's people like this in management who have run our economy into the ground ever since this decade began. How do they keep getting away with it??

 

[MW44]

Jetops-

Wow you made me chuckle there...I must have hit a nerve. Are you related to this Gotbaum guy or Jonathan Ornstein perhaps? Yes I do stand by my statement. If more pilots had the backbone that this guy demonstrated then our collective earnings as pilots would have a rosier future. Now whether or not pilots deserve to make a good living is an entirely different matter. I imagine you subscribe to the philosophy that pilots are just glorified bus drivers and we should be happy to make minimum wage and get some free pretzels in the process while management gets all the "real work" done. I don't agree.

As for the Jacka@@ comment, that came out of right field. Sounds like you have a bit of an inferiority complex or something?

 

[MW44]

"It's people like this in management who have run our economy into the ground ever since this decade began. How do they keep getting away with it??" Daysleeper


Answer-
In a nutshell, because we let them...

 

[PurpleTail]

MW44 is right on

I think jetops is the one that is from another planet. You have to stand up for what you believe in and take a stance. Sounds like Gotbaum got away easy to me. How would you like to have a career with a company that you bend over backwards for, fly through bad weather for, meet & greet passengers for...oh yea by the way...we're cutting your pension and lining our pockets! B f'in S!

Pay me fairly, feed me a desent meal and give me a good place sleep and I'll give you a full honest days worth of work. How hard is that?

This is still a respectable profession, lets keep it that way.

 

[MW44]

JETOPS stated

"I guess you haven figured out that pilots fly planes, management finds the customers and makes sure you still have a plane to fly jacka$$ and get a check every week ..."

Obviously the idiots who had been running Hal didn't do a very good job at that. Some of the lowest labor costs in the industry for 767 and DC 10 crews and those leaders you so vehemently defend still managed to run Hal into bankruptcy. If the average line pilot flew as poorly as the average airlne executive managed then there would be no airline industry.

 

[gear_guy]

It never fails that someone puts a comment like jetops into a pilots forum thread like this. I mean come on, what did you expect. You are certain to get torn a new one.

 

[No Delay]

Bravo. Bravo. Bravo - To the Hawaiian Pilot!


I am all for management making money. If it is there, take it. I would never fault someone for wanting to make more money. Same thing with the pilots. I want you guys to make $500,000 / year!

The problem is when Management wants to cut someone else's pay so they can make more. It is a slap in the face. It is management simply saying, I am more important than you, my family is more important than your family...oh, by the way, can I get a free ride on your airplane?

I think a "real" manager should be concerned with the success of the company. I think success is not only the profits the company is making, but should be the quality of life of it employees (which will help ensure a long and profitable future for it's company). Now I know you can't get crazy and start paying rampers $250,000 / year.....but there is nothing wrong with a ramper making $50,000 to $80,000. I don't mind upper management making millions (they do have a lot of responsibilities) as long as there is an even or at least fair spread across the company.

The people on this board are sharp....someone should be able to find out who this pilot is and we all send him our support and congrats!

 

[Jim]

JETOPS stated

Obviously the idiots who had been running Hal didn't do a very good job at that. Some of the lowest labor costs in the industry for 767 and DC 10 crews and those leaders you so vehemently defend still managed to run Hal into bankruptcy.

HAL's labor cost are not that low. Our pay is closer to the average than most realize with a lot smaller pay gap than there used to be (unfortunately due to their pay lowering rather than our pay increasing). Our post-9/11 concessions did not include a pay cut but instead resulted in work rule changes. What also adds to HAL's labor cost is we carry at least 2 extra FAs per flight above the FAA minimum. We're big on customer service and our FA's contract results in a lot of double and triple overtime for the senior ones.

From airlinepilotpay.com for 767 operators (no more DC-10s at HAL).

5yr CA 12yr CA 2yr FO 12yr FO
HAL 162 163 74 114
AA 109 161 78 115
CO 194 204 80 122
USAIR 165 176 80 120 (going down 12% from this?)
UAL 160 170 102 116
N.Amer 100 123 57 79
UPS 154 190 76 127
ABX 218 234 105 152
DAL 243 268 131 183

 

[MW44]

I wasn't trying to trash your pay I was just pointing out that with pay rates that top out below most other airlines flying similar equipment Hal management should bear much of the responsibility for the bankruptcy filing. It seems crazy to me that Gotbaum would propose cutting pilot pensions to save money while concurrently endorsing a 3 million dollar bonus plan for management. Maybe I'm missing something here.

As for carrying extra FA's don't quite a few airlines who fly across the pond carry extra FA's?

 

[AMRCostUnit]

I don't mind upper management making millions (they do have a lot of responsibilities)

On my last 777 recurrent we did a hot, heavy (648k) V1 cut. Took 18 miles to get to 800AGL to clean up. At the "FUEL LEVER" part of the checklist the check airman put the sim on freeze and said, "you are about to make a $750million dollar decision (refering to the pax liability plus airframe cost). Don't let anyone EVER tell you you are overpaid."


Management doesn't have anywhere close to this type of responsibility.


Here at AMR management took 1.6billion a year from the employees and used 43mil to guarantee their retirements in case of BK.

To Hawaiian Captain Kobayashi I say "mahalo"

Unit

 

[MW44]

Amr,

Beautifully said! I think Alpa national should hire you as a PR director. You never read about our side of the story when "labor costs" are discussed by the media.

 

[capt. megadeth]

That Hawaiian pilot is my hero!

 

[xdays]

Amr,

Beautifully said! I think Alpa national should hire you as a PR director. You never read about our side of the story when "labor costs" are discussed by the media.

Agree, well said, however AMR unfortunately chose to quit ALPA.

 

[jetops]

wow I did hit a nerve? must have few replys from MW44

Jetops-

Wow you made me chuckle there...I must have hit a nerve. Are you related to this Gotbaum guy or Jonathan Ornstein perhaps? Yes I do stand by my statement. If more pilots had the backbone that this guy demonstrated then our collective earnings as pilots would have a rosier future. Now whether or not pilots deserve to make a good living is an entirely different matter. I imagine you subscribe to the philosophy that pilots are just glorified bus drivers and we should be happy to make minimum wage and get some free pretzels in the process while management gets all the "real work" done. I don't agree.

As for the Jacka@@ comment, that came out of right field. Sounds like you have a bit of an inferiority complex or something?

[font=&quot]It kind of hard to squeeze blood out of turnip… Incase you did know there in bankruptcy. The company would not be around if they had not done some of the thing they did to save the company .If the company around there will be jobs for pilots and all the other people that support them .If the company make some money they will gives some if it back to the people that work there .. I will post a article for you to read [/font]

So the proposal there offering is legal under bankruptcy… If you don’t know what bankruptcy is here the text book definition

Status of a debtor who has been declared by judicial process to be unable to pay his or her debts.It also refers to the legal process involved: the administration of an insolvent debtor's property by the court for the benefit of the debtor's creditors. Filing by a debtor is called voluntary bankruptcy; involuntary bankruptcy is declared by the court upon petition by a creditor. The U.S. Bankruptcy Code makes four types of relief available to bankrupt individuals or corporations: liquidation (under Chapter 7), reorganization (Chapter 11), debt adjustment for a family farmer (Chapter 12), and debt adjustment for an individual with a regular income (Chapter 13). Municipalities may file under Chapter 9. Generally, not all debts are paid in a bankruptcy. The court determines which debts are to be repaid, and the debtor is typically granted a discharge of the rest.

For you information the pliot’s name was Capt. Craig Kobayashi and he had a vendetta against Gotbaum. This was real professional of Capt. Craig Kobayashi kicking for a person because you don’t like them . Just show the where his maturity level was at maybe five year old …

Obviously the idiots who had been running Hal didn't do a very good job at that. Some of the lowest labor costs in the industry for 767 and DC 10 crews and those leaders you so vehemently defend still managed to run Hal into bankruptcy. If the average line pilot flew as poorly as the average airlne executive managed then there would be no airline industry.

You’re not too smart are you? You most likely have the mentality shoot first question later right. NEWS FLASH they don’t fly dc-10. I suggest you read what you write and make sure it fairly accurate before you post it . Because you can change it with the new board setting they have on flight info



Hawaiian Shares $1.9 Million of First Quarter Profits with Employees

$7 Million Paid Out Since Program’s Inception Last Year

HONOLULU, May 17, 2004 -- HONOLULU – Making good on its promise that employees would share in the company’s success, Hawaiian Airlines paid out $1.9 million in first quarter profit-sharing bonuses for union and non-union employees who agreed to concessions last year.

To date, Hawaiian has paid out a total of $7.0 million in employee profit-sharing bonuses under the program.

Joshua Gotbaum, trustee for Hawaiian Airlines, said, “When Hawaiian needed them, Hawaiian’s employees were there. It’s right that they should share in Hawaiian’s success.”

Company officers are not included in the bonus program. Gotbaum announced last year that he would propose a bonus program to correct this. “It’s only fair,” he said.

Hawaiian’s ability to generate revenue and pay a profit-sharing bonus for first quarter is even more noteworthy considering it was earned during a timeframe that has historically not generated significant operating profits for the airline.

Hawaiian and its employees agreed to the profit-sharing program as part of labor negotiations in early 2003. Under the agreement, 10 percent of the company’s operating profits through June 2004 in excess of its quarterly targets are being paid out as quarterly bonuses.