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Have you ever ground-looped a tailwheel?

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Never groundlooped unintentionally in 19+ years of flying. Used to intentionally GL a tailwheel ultralight I used to have that had no brakes. Just waited till it slowed a bit then kicked the tail around to stop. I did, however have my Pitts S1C scare the bejesus out of me a few times when I got complacent. Never forget, go-arounds are free, wingtips aren't.
 
I like round engines. I like flying behind them, and I like working on them.

How much conventional gear experience do I have? How much do I need?

I didn't state anything smug, opinionated, or even debatable. I take strong exception to the stupidity of the statement that there are those who have, and those who will. This presupposes the inevitable. It casts airmanship to the wind, relegates it to fate. Those who believe such nonsense have no business in a cockpit, period. If one believes it is inevitable, then die in a rockingchair and save the passengers the grief of an inevitable fate.

A ground loop is NOT inevitable. A gear up landing is not inevitable. Certainly they happen, but both are far from inevitable. Have I groundlooped? As a kid, I got a bootheel stuck under the rudder pedal bar on a cub while stabbing at the heel brake while taxiing, and endured the embarassment of having bystanders watch as I rode in a slow circle on the taxiway, trying to get it free. I stopped, removed the boots, and tossed them out, and never wore them again. I never had that problem again, either.

That was a long time ago, I was seventeen. Since that time, I've flown conventional gear off sand and dirt, grass and ice, tarmac and everything else from roads to brush to whatever else was required, from small light fabric piston airplanes to larger heavy turbine airplanes...each with the common characteristic of having the third wheel where God intended it; in back. I've flown those airplanes under powerlines and into tight canyons, under hard core VFR, and zippo visibility VFR and IFR. I've flown them into places that you probably wouldn't dream of going in your nightmares, on a daily basis, in winds that are probably higher than anything you've ever experienced outside the jet stream. No groundloops since.

That's not owing to great wisdom, skill, or intelligence. I'm an average pilot, perhaps a little below average. No great insight, no rocket science. It's simply a matter of flying the airplane as it should be flown, learning from experience, and taking the proactive stance that there is no fate, only circumstance with which I have an active part in creation. I've had the gear failures, brake failures, fires, and the usual. Some have worked out well, some not so well. I'll take an airplane in high winds, and fly it in rough terrain, and make the best of the circumstances given; it's part of what I do. Just like thousands of others.

I fly conservatively. I don't burn off the bottom half of the tank where able. I don't study systems, I digest airplanes, because it's kept me alive, and it's worked so far. I refuse flights where judgement dictates, and I set my own minimums usually in excess of the minimums required by law. I don't push limits; mine, or those of the airplane. I go around. I maintain blindfold familiarity with each cockpit I fly, because experience has taught me that my life depends on that fact. I live by the credo that there is no flight which must be made, no matter how seemingly critical it may be. I live on the memory of too many dead friends and co-workers, and acquaintances who have left me a lesson in legacy of their bitter loss; better to listen to their dying act as a sermon than repeat it in ignorance. And I pass on those lessons where I can.

If you don't like it, you don't need to take it. You can believe the criminal falsehood of inevitability, and let your own fate rest in the nonexistant hand of fortune. Only a fool would do so, but for those who believe otherwise, why fight what one cannot control? Take your place as a statistic; I'll add the lesson etched in your blood to the others in memory; however faint, some good may come of it. If not, if you perchance do choose to believe that you have some control, that the outcome of every landing and everyflight is indeed in your hands, then welcome back to reality, and let's forget this nonsense.

Do I care if you find fault with me? Not hardly. I'm slightly balding, my back is a little hunched, my eyes are too close together, my face is wrinkled and doesn't hold a shaven look for long. I'm often tired. I'm divorced. I don't work and play well with others. I have no education. My pattern work has long since degenerated to exclude the base leg; it's a downwind to final, or not at all. The list is nearly endless, your contribution to the litany is only reiteration of hum-ho fact. My judgement as an aviator is based on countless scores of monuments to stupidity, and an inexplicable drive that compels me to not repeat any one of those events more than I possibly must.

Operating a conventional gear airplane is a basic pilot skill. It is no great feat. What it does do is require that one actually sit up and pay attention, stay a foot or two ahead of the airplane, respect it. Nothing more. No great accolade flying with a tailwheel; it's nothing more than an elementary skill. If one cannot manage it, then one cannot say it is some challenge, some wall, something that is above the most basic of monkey skills, for that's all it is. To grant it any more mystic mythology is only to profess ignorance; something excusable so long as one recognizes the depth of the ignorance and acts accordingly. For one to fail to recognize it, one is placed in the position of being behind the ball; a dangerous place to be and one not served as fate. It's all in the hands of the driver.

This isn't smugness, nor conceit. It's simple fact. There is nothing inevitable about groundlooping, about gear up landings, about crashing, or any other aspect of aviation. I submit that one should be prepared for any emergency as though it is inevitable, but one should never become ensconced in the laughable admonition that there are those who have, and those who will. Such wild speculation leaves aside those who never have, and those who won't...because they won't allow it to happen.

Accidents happen. Stupdity happens. But neither is inevitable. That's not opinion, nor smug conceit. It's a fact. To even debate that is to profess self ignorance in the extreme, and that folks, is pure fact.
 
Its great when an experienced pilot offers his skill and knowledge to others... even commendable.

Its very inappropriate to attack others for any reason. Its in bad taste and sours what is otherwise a good thread. Whether you're intent is to bait others or simply put them down because they are not as good as you, its a sign of immaturity.

We might be right or wrong, it doesn't matter as long as we can discuss it as professionals should.
 
P.S. I realised after hitting submit it's placement may look directed at AVBuG's post, however it is not directed at any single individual.
 
Ok, I'll buy that. BTW, no groundloop here. But I did know a guy groundloop in a BE-18. Did a bit of damage too. Investigators found the tail wheel locking mechanism to be screwed up. The guy had "enough" time and "enough" experience, and most likely flew the plane properly in most respects.

I too don't buy the line "there are those who have, and haven't groundlooped." But I recognize it as a figure of speech, for the most part. It should be rephrased as- "sure you can still fly neat old taildraggers and have fun, just be on your toes."
 
Conventional gear airplanes gave way to tricycle gear airplanes much the way automobiles with manual chokes and manual transmissions gave way to automatics. It's dumbed down the skill and finesse required of an aviator. There are pilots out there these days that think that the sidewalls of tires are for straightening out the crab angle on touchdown. Those guys will be the "inevitable" groundloopers. I think learning to fly with the ball centered and the nose aligned with the runway has a lot to do with the quality of all aspects of flying, not just how well we keep a tailwheel behind the center of gravity. Tape a yaw string to your kid's forehead when he's born and he'll make a good tailwheel pilot when he's older.

On another note, has anyone ever had trouble rolling out a Pitts or other no-forward-visibility taildragger when there's no discernable runway edge to keep orientation? (i.e. grass that blends in with the infield)

I once tried landing my old Pitts on a grass strip defined by tires and found myself zig-zagging from tire to tire as they came into view around the sides if the cowling. Anybody have a better technique?
 
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Is that the one that cartwheeled to a screeching halt after a flubbed v1 cut at BPT?
 
Loafman,

In aircraft with no forward visibility, I like to land looking to the side and forward about 45 degrees. I don't focus on a point, but use peripherial for depth, and note the direction by the streaks of the grass or tarmac. If the streeks are straight past me, I'm going straight, and if they're angling toward me, I'm drifting left (assuming I'm looking out the left). If the streaks are drifting away from me, I'm drifting right, and apply slight rudder accordingly.

To keep centerline, if there is one, I simply maintain a distance from the reference to my side...sort of like riding your motorcycle close to a semi on the freeway. When I'm doing that, I note what's generally ahead of me, but watch the side of the truck. In the same way, I watch the side of the runway, and mentally note drift and distance.

For aircraft with limited forward vis, a steeper approach culminating in a wheel landing is sometimes more appropriate, especially on less improved runways, narrow runways, etc.
 
Wheel landings were ok in a C180, but it seemed like if you could see over the nose of the Pitts, you were going waaaaay to fast.
 
BugChaser is right...

handling a tailwheel aircraft is not difficult at all, ONCE YOU LEARN WHAT YOU ARE DOING, and unlearn the bad habits you learned in tri-gear aircraft. I dont have near as many hours as he does, but I have flown some of the same aircraft. I learned to fly TW in an Aeronca AC-11 Chief. Groundlooped it, too. Groundlooped a Cessna Ag Wagon one morning, lost the left brake during rollout after landing. It happens, and usually it is no big deal. But, anyone who says they have "mastered" the tailwheel aircraft is nothing but an accident waiting to happen. I've got a friend who has close to 9000 hours in everything tailwheel from Cubs to Stearmans to Turbine Ag Cats, and he still gets suprised now and then!:D
 
I don't like flying a 185 with the ailerons that droop down with flaps extended (maybe the Horton Stol Kit???), makes for interesting crosswind landings if you use any flaps.
The Howard DGA-15P is also another airplane that can be a little tricky, the main landing gear springs are springy (can make for soft landings), but if you let it get bouncing it doesn't want to stop. There have been many Howards lost to groundloops over the years.
 
Hey! I wanna hear more about the RJ and King Air ground loop!

:D

Minh
 
My contribution: it ain't much

I have 18 hours in a Decathalon. Never ground looped it. Whew!

But I just wanted to say I'm on board, four square with Avbug's "Inevitable" post. Nice job, but I have one hesitation.

Avbug wrote: <<There is nothing inevitable about groundlooping, about gear up landings, about crashing, or any other aspect of aviation.>>

Actually there is ONE inevitability: The return to Terra Firma, one way or another, we're coming down.

Thank you. Thank you very much.
:)
 
Too true, Mar. Except the lead in a missing man formation that pulls up and disappears into the "heavens."

It always gives me chills.
 
Re: Does it matter?

Traumahawk said:
Who cares how much tail time FWAS has?


I certainly don't care how much time he has, but then, he was the one claiming that he had insight that someone else did not because of his flight time. In that context, it think it's reasonable to inquire how much time he actually has. If he's going to make flight time the yardstick, he should have no objection to being measured by it. It should be noted that after casting aspersions on someone elses time he has yet to answer the question or even explain why he's evading it. I guess we are left to draw our conclusions form that.
 
Hey Mar, got a question...

If you dont mind me asking , what company are you flying DC-6s with? That's one of my all time favorite Douglas birds. :D
 
Cessna 170

I own a C170 B. It has a huge rudder however, it doesn't have a lot of deflection. Sometimes I think it is under controlled especially when the tail is comming down after a wheel landing in a x-wind. I have tried landing in X-winds with flaps 10, 20, and up and flaps 10 seems to work the best. The location of the CG seems to make a big difference. When the CG is aft, I have had some sporty landings and it always seems like there is always someone watching. when I make what I feel like is a perfect Ldg, no one is around. Oh well thats just the way it goes, good thing it has big wheels, 180 gear and good brakes.
 
avbug said:
...the lead in a missing man formation that pulls up and disappears into the "heavens." It always gives me chills.
A friend of my father botched a missing man formation with a flight of F-4's once. They ended up crossed over the funeral at about .95. Gave people chills alright! :eek:

(I think even the deceased yelled, "holy siht!")
 
No it wasn't the BPT training accident. This one happened in EWR and without going into speculation and detail, it had to do with the brakes locking up on touchdown. This resulted in a 360 spin with blown out mains (EXCITING!)
 

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