Have you ever ground-looped a tailwheel?

[newmei]

Its just goes to show you everybodies perception is different. I find the 170 harder to 3 point and easy to two point....Who knows???!

I do quite a bit of instruction in 170 and its quite enjoyable, but the above poster is right, you better be ready. I've had some interesting things happen already.

 

[flywithastick]

The idea that there are those that have and those who will, is absolute garbage. I hear that about groundloops, gear up landings, you name it. Foolishness.

Why don't you lighten up, buddy! It's called a figure of speach!

Mistakes do happen, and stupidity happens too...but neither is inevitable.

Sounds like a no-wind flyer speaking... Get a little more conventional gear time, and you'll understand.

Incidentally, one cannot groundloop a tailwheel. One can groundloop a conventional gear airplane, but the tailwheel knows nothing about direction, forward or back. It cannot be groundlooped on it's own. Only the airplane may be groundlooped, as a whole.

Oh, now you're a funny guy.

 

[dav8or]

I had a 1987 MR2 that was very prone to ground looping. My only tw landing was in a Swift with a 235 hp engine and a 80 hp tail. One landing was enough, better quit while I was a head.

 

[Traumahawk]

I'll buy the "theres those who have and those who will" on groundlooping faster than a gear up incident....

Too many factors...
Innadequate primary instruction...
Proficiency/limits
Some of the older brakes like to grab if you haven't re-adjusted them for the changing season....combine this phenomena or losing a spring at the wrong moment(IE gust) and theres a chance you might get a panoramic view for a few seconds.

Or just letting your guard up...the great thing about flying taildraggers is it can be one of the most satisfying experieces but nearly always includes the same potential to be just as humbling.

Most can keep it straight, thats the goal here ......But the airplane inherently wants to go backwards, pilot error is only one factor that can make this happen....So spare me the 'groundlooping is for the birds hogwash', this is along the same lines as checkrides should be passed the first time every time if your 'truly ready'.
In this case more than half of all certificated pilots should probably have the tickets revoked right? I know I've passed rides with flying colors only to go up the next day and make some amatuer mistakes which would have burned me previously.
And I have the TW endorsement but won't lie about having to 'tap the brake' once or twice when things were sloppier than they should have been. Let us all guess, brakes are for emergencies right? I'll go tear the endorsement out of the book right now......

T-hawk

 

[avbug]

Sounds like a no-wind flyer speaking... Get a little more conventional gear time, and you'll understand.

Good God. If that isn't the ultimate statement of ignorance. I think ya got it backward there, kid.

 

[A Squared]

Avbug,

Lessee, you started flying ag when you were in high school quite a while ago ...... wasn't that in conventional gear airplanes? Seems to me that you're still spending a good part of the year flying fire surpression in a conventional gear Ag plane. Kinda makes one wonder how much more tailwheel time flywithastick thinks you need.


Flywithastick,

I ususlly avoid the "my d1ck is bigger than your d1ck because I have xxxx hours" discussions, but since you started it, How many t/w hours do you think Avbug should have to no longer be considered a neophyte, no-wind flyer? How many do you have? How many total hours? If you're gonna make bold statements about hours, you shouldn't have any objection to laying yours out for all to see.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Time...

I have up to, and including, 5 hours of conventional gear dual-received time. So if avbug needs some help with this, feel free to call on an expert like myself for back-up.


Sarcasm aside, those 5 hours I have really made my feet come alive. Tailwheel aircraft----

 

[flywithastick]

Hey - two bites on one agitating post!! Ha!!! Y'all are too easy.

Yea, A squared, you don't have a dog in this hunt. Avbug is the one making the smug remarks. What's it to you?

"Statement of ignorance", Avbug? Why is that? I've never seen you fly. All I know is the pompous dissertations you've posted all over the Internet.

I have it backward? How could you even presume to know my flying background?

Last - why do you (and your fans) get so upset when I take a jab at your flying experience? One who was so rich with flying experience shouldn't even raise an eyebrow over a remark from some virtual Internet agitator, or someone taking a position contrary to your stance. But time and time again, you flare up when people question or challenge you.

 

[GLSoar]

Nose Heavy C180

That thing is tricky, can not even think about touching the brakes.
I have alot of TD time and that 180 makes me nervous, mostly because I don't own it!

 

[BoxFlyr]

i ground looped a cessna 320 at palm beach international quite a few years ago. the sissor pin on the right main gear decided it wanted to break upon landing, allowing the wheel to rotate. it was a pretty wild ride for a few seconds. boxflyr

 

[A Squared]

Flywithastick,

What's it to me? Well, one of my personal pet peeves is people who, when they can't think of some sort of rational argument, hurl groundless accusations of inexperience.

This is a case in point, you don't like what Avbug said, so you accuse him of inexperience. What a cop out, can't debate the words so you attack the person. In this particular case the accusations of inexperience are likely a little misplaced. Even if we assume that avbug's statements about his experience can't be verified, the most we can say is that we don't know what his experience is, much like we don't know what your experience is. Yet here you are, ranting about how inexperienced Avbug is, when the only evidence we have suggests that it's not true .....all because you don't like something he said.

So, the question still stands, how much T/W time do you have? I think that is a reasonable question to ask of someone who is claiming superiority because of experience. Why haven't you answered?

 

[flywithastick]

What's it to me? Well, one of my personal pet peeves is people who, when they can't think of some sort of rational argument, hurl groundless accusations of inexperience.

Doh!! Sorry I steped on your pet peeve, there!

This is a case in point, you don't like what Avbug said, so you accuse him of inexperience.

Actually, I pretty much figured it'd ruffle some feathers. Just didn't think he'd need someone else come to his rescue!

...Yet here you are, ranting about how inexperienced ...

Ranting?! I took a shot at the guy! no one's beyond getting a little shot at them occasionally. Especially people who speak down to everyone else. Man, you need to stand back and take a breath...

 

[JD2003]

groundloop

Yea...I did my 360 degree peripheral tour of a small grass strip in pennsylvania...1946 7AC Champ...looped right...left break inop...stiff wind...no recovery...no damage.

got back in and flew it home...my friend in the back diddn't say a word.

 

[A Squared]

Just didn't think he'd need someone else come to his rescue!

Umm, no, you apparently misunderstand me, I didn't post to defend Avbug, I'm sure he's perfectly capable of it himself, and I would assume that he has already done so to the extent he feels is appropriate. I posted to underline the stupidity of attacking someone's flight experience merely because you don't like what he said. Apparently I've been too subtle.

Anyway, the question still stands, you've proposed quantity of tailwheel experience as being of vital relevance to the question at hand .... so how much do you have? Kinda wondering why you haven't answered.

 

[avbug]

My mistake. I took him seriously. He's (she's?) a flame-baiter. I believe the internet term is "troll."

 

[bugchaser]

Hey Avbug, you better get a little more practice! Maybe you will figure all this TW stuff out in the next few thousand hrs?

Seriously, you guys are making way too much out of this tailwheel thing. If you pay attention to the wind and control the airplane as it should be done, its no big deal. Most people who fly a tailwheel act like it takes a superman to handle their 140, 170 or whatever. Because of this myth, the insurance is terrible for any tailwheel airplane unless you have lots of time. As for the discussion of which tailwheel airplane is the most difficult to handle, the answer is that none of them are hard, just different. You have to know the correct technique for each and just do it. I am currently working with a student that soloed in a 152tw at about 11 hrs. He is doing very well with it because he doesn't know anything else. When giving a tw checkout most of the time is spent undoing the bad habits that most pilots have developed. Many of those you can get away with in a 172 but will bite you in a 170.

Oh yeah, I'm just a relative beginner myself. About 5800 TW hrs. I still learn something on every flight.

 

[Traumahawk]

Does it matter?

Who cares how much tail time FWAS has?

I know a guy with about 25 hours TW and flies it like he has been doing so for years. Got the signoff in 2 1/2 hours and straps the thing on like it should be worn and flies in a way in that there is no question that he has total control of the aircraft in all situations. Half of it is in an old radial Wilga......

I also know a guy with hundereds of hours of TW that groundlooped a cub in calm wind!

This proves nothing....
I think we lost the point of this thread: Who did the dreaded circular dance in a taildragger. I have the utmost respect for the people who can talk about it like any other part of aviation experience that comes around. I remember a crusty old captain telling me how he groundlooped a DC-3 with the full amount of guests in the back(d*mned tail wheel lock...doh!) When I asked what he did he just shrugged and said, "well, we pulled back on the runway and took off! Doesn't ususally happen 'cept sometimes."

Avbug plays the Devil's Advocate, and sometimes it's good to see a different perspective on things....him and others have helped me to lose some scewed tunnel vision I've had on various subjects....

But in this case, lets go along his line of thinking. A statement to parellel the theme I've picked up on in my time here is this.......
IF you had time only in a 152, and flew it properly according to the PTS......and were thrown into a cessna 120 with no idea or understanding on the different characteristics.....there is no exscuse for groundlooping. AT ALL. Cause if you are aligned with AND over the centerline meeting the pavement in a full stall condition and maintaining directional control throughout, nothing different should happen. Right? There shouldn't be a TW endorsement! It's all the same! If the technique is correct, its all the same. Anyone who can't do this obviously needs remedial training!

Kinda true.....But back to reality-------I'm kinda glad my sh*t stinks.....I'd hate to be that guy out there who's doesn't. Don't worry, for all "those guys" out there.....we'll all be here to make the 'foolish' mistakes so that they don't have to--well, not that they would anyways....

--T-Hawk

 

[Mr.Breeze]

I'll have to second Flywithstick and Traumahawk. The latter guy really summed it all up.

Lowering the gear is a procedure, plain and simple. Failing to lower the gear would be akin to using the wrong flap setting, not activating wing de-ice when req'd, ect. The difference being that landing gear up will quickly put you on the local news.

Takeoff and landing in a taildragger requires continuous motor skill. More "doing" than "thinking," it's a dance. It's more art than science. Anyway, it's a helluva lot more than a procedure.

Just curious Avbug, how much, if any tailwheel time do you have?

 

[Mr.Breeze]

Oh, sorry. I have about 250 hours tw time. None of it very recent- but all very memorable. Has anyone out there flown a big tw-ie DC-3, Beech 18?

 

[LearAv8r]

Flew the -3 and the -18. both fun to fly, both suck on one engine!


Do you know why they make radial engines round?



so you can roll them to the junkyard!



Lear