Has anyone tried this solution to PFT?

[English]

I've meet several people this week who paid for their own training. I'm not talking small potatoes, either - I mean Gulfstream type ratings. That's some big cash. I might be a little too judgmental about PFT'ers, and tend to have less respect for pilots that do this. It got me thinking about possible other ways people can move ahead without whoring themselves out. What do you guys think about this as an alternative?

Let's say your potential employer offers you a position flying an airplane making 90k a year. He is going to type you in an aircraft and the type rating will cost him 20k.

What are the downsides, to an employer and to the employee, of the employee making 70K the first year, and receiving an incentive bonus at the end of 12 months of 20K? The employee would still make 90k and the employer would have a way to ensure a full twelve months of work for his investment. The salary would go up to 90k plus a few percent (or a merit based increase) the second year.

If the employee quits during the commitment period, he has no opportunity to earn the bonus. If he is fired, he would earn a prorated share of the bonus (say he was fired in month 11 of the agreement, he would earned 11/12ths of the 20k bonus).

What do you think?

 

[CUBMAN]

English;

I dont think there is anything wrong with this myself. I have never done PFT except to pay for my own Private, Commercial, CFI, etc... but what if all you did was contract work, which is exactly what many people do! Who would be the one to pay for initial/recurrent in this situation? My thinking is that it would be the contract pilot. Not quite the same but I think the principle is.

In my own opion it is not PFT as we all seem to view it. Most people who go this route would probably already be experienced pilots.

Cubman

 

[slowto250]

I've meet several people this week who paid for their own training. I'm not talking small potatoes, either - I mean Gulfstream type ratings. That's some big cash. I might be a little too judgmental about PFT'ers, and tend to have less respect for pilots that do this. It got me thinking about possible other ways people can move ahead without whoring themselves out. What do you guys think about this as an alternative?

Let's say your potential employer offers you a position flying an airplane making 90k a year. He is going to type you in an aircraft and the type rating will cost him 20k.

What are the downsides, to an employer and to the employee, of the employee making 70K the first year, and receiving an incentive bonus at the end of 12 months of 20K? The employee would still make 90k and the employer would have a way to ensure a full twelve months of work for his investment. The salary would go up to 90k plus a few percent (or a merit based increase) the second year.

If the employee quits during the commitment period, he has no opportunity to earn the bonus. If he is fired, he would earn a prorated share of the bonus (say he was fired in month 11 of the agreement, he would earned 11/12ths of the 20k bonus).

What do you think?

As a matter of fact.....Been there, done that. Very similar to what you have outlined. These were 2 year contracts, with the first year pro-rated. You were essentially off the hook after 12 months, so we never really understood the purpose of the 2 year time frame, except to raise ones sense of committment. I believe these types of contracts are becoming more commonplace.

I still prefer my current employers practice. Just a handshake.

 

[G100driver]

English, this is exactly what they do at Executive Flight in Wenachee, WA. They operate and actually own their own Lear's and a Challenger. They pay for your training and give a cash bonus, I last heard, of about $18K after 3 years. No contracts.

It just goes to show, there actually are respectable charter companies out there. Amazing isn't it.

 

[CapnVegetto]

There's nothing in the world wrong with that scenario. As long as you're not buying a job from someone, or if someone expects you to shell out a bunch of your own money for a type rating that they should be paying for, that's not bad at all. Back when I was still at my regional, and hated every second of it, I got offered a job as a 135 BE-400 captain, but turned it down because they wanted me to pay for my own type rating. NO WAY. I'm not going to shell out $20K of my money just so I can have the honor of working for you. That's an employer's responsibility, not the pilot's.

 

[kingairyahoo]

...and here i thought you didnt like Sunset's way of doing business

 

[Wang Chung]

They pay for your training and give a cash bonus, I last heard, of about $18K after 3 years. No contracts.

I interviewed there not too long ago, never heard about the $18k deal.

They did tell me about a Lear type option that they offer, though. When they send you to Lear SIC initial, you have the option of typing yourself and paying a couple thousand bucks out-of-pocket to offset the cost difference. Then, after one year, they reimburse you for the extra $$. Otherwise, they would type you as an SIC after one year.

Definitely a pro operation!

 

[G100driver]

I interviewed back there in 2000 during the boom years. I do not know if they still do it today, however.

We have used them for supplimental lift and they are a pro operation. It is hard to find a lear operator who is willing to do it right.

 

[TimsKeeper]

I'm sure you got someone to pay for your Multi-Engine Land rating also? right? or how about your ATP.....it's all training to get a job....crying about PFT is sour grapes...I haven't needed to do it ( actually I can't afford it) but it's not my place to judge someone else.

 

[Flybet3]

I agree

I'm sure you got someone to pay for your Multi-Engine Land rating also? right? or how about your ATP.....it's all training to get a job....crying about PFT is sour grapes...I haven't needed to do it ( actually I can't afford it) but it's not my place to judge someone else.

You know what? I agree with you 100%. I have a couple of friends that are contract pilots and that's all they want to do, so they have paid for at least 1 of their many types. Secondly if paying 20K for a Gulfstream type to get a job is whoring yourself, than that means that most of the southwest pilots are a bunch of whores, most of them had to go to higher power aviation and paid for a type to get a job. Not trying to offend any SW pilots. But lets face it, on Gulfstream jobs, either you're current and typed on the airplane to get the job or you dont get the job. We've all done PFT at some point, paying for a CFI to get a job at your flight school seems like PFT to me, I knew alot of CFIs that bought ALOT, or even penciled in multi-time b/c that was the only way they could get enough multi time to qualify for a freight job. I think that if you dont do it, someone else will.

 

[G100driver]

I haven't needed to do it ( actually I can't afford it) but it's not my place to judge someone else.

Your own statement gives gives reason not to repect the PFT'er in the corporate/135 world.

You are fortunate that you have a job and do not need to buy your job. But if by your own statement, money is tight why would want to compete for a job with a guy that is will to give a zillionare $38,000 (price of a Falcon 2000 type) just for the opprotunity to "work" for him.

A contractor, IMHO, does not fall into this category either. A contractor works for himself and sets his or her own schedule and can say "no" anytime. Big difference than working for an on call outfit or full time 91 gig.

In additon, most contractor's did not go out and purchase there types, they are maintaining currency of one from there previous employer until the next good full time gig comes along.

If you can afford an airplane you can afford a crew. No need to apologize for zillionare's or make excuses for them.

Not sour grapes, just a reality check.

 

[G100driver]

BTW a newly minted type rating with no jet expirence is about worthless. Do not do it.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.lol

 

[XSWANN@240]

Your own statement gives gives reason not to repect the PFT'er in the corporate/135 world.

You are fortunate that you have a job and do not need to buy your job. But if by your own statement, money is tight why would want to compete for a job with a guy that is will to give a zillionare $38,000 (price of a Falcon 2000 type) just for the opprotunity to "work" for him.

A contractor, IMHO, does not fall into this category either. A contractor works for himself and sets his or her own schedule and can say "no" anytime. Big difference than working for an on call outfit or full time 91 gig.

If you can afford an airplane you can afford a crew. No need to apologize for zillionare's or make excuses for them.

Not sour grapes, just a reality check.

I agree with you. That's the cost of doing buisness. Some operators are taking advantage knowing the job market is currently tough for pilots. As a result they may feel that some pilots are willing to give up their savings or ask for bank loan. This just makes it harder for the rest of us.

Only my opinion....

 

[English]

Back to my original question....

Are there any downsides to doing what I proposed in my first post?

 

[CUBMAN]

English;

The only downside that I see in your situation is that you would be out X amount of money for whatever type rating you are seeking. Its not like you are buying your job and taking money out of someones kids mouth. Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Cubman

 

[GV-Ace]

Back to my original question....

Are there any downsides to doing what I proposed in my first post?

No downside, English. You should run for Chief Pilot.

The fact that some miss is that one could:

A. Get a free type and then make 85K per year, or,
B. Pay 30K for a type and make 105K per year (net 10K less year one, 10K more year 2, etc)

However the cards may fall, one needs to look at the entire package. Your idea is better than the normal PFT, is that many folks don't have the 30K, and, there is no guarantee that they don't pay for the rating and get canned the next day.

G

 

[English]

No downside, English. You should run for Chief Pilot.

Or President.

You must know me. Do I know you?

 

[GV-Ace]

You must know me. Do I know you?

That, my dear, is for me to know...

G

 

[English]

The flightinfo mystery man....

 

[kingairyahoo]

That, my dear, is for me to know...

G

[cheesy announcer voice ON]
Romance, Mystery, and Intrigue! ...tune in tomorrow for the exciting conclusion of "The clandestine love affair"!!!

[cheesy announcer voice OFF]

 

[slowto250]

Naw....it's more like, another episode of "As the turbine whines".

 

[English]

I guess the ultimate litmus test is that Gulfstream 200 hasn't chimed yet.

Hey Gulfstream 200, if you happen to read this, I'd really like to read your opinion.

 

[groundpointsix]

I think that in principle, your idea makes total sense. Unfortunately, the same companies that make pilot's PFT are often the same ones that pay their pilots crap. So let's say they're offering me $60,000 a year to fly a Falcon (I'm assuming that's low end even for an F/O, correct me if I'm wrong) but they want to deduct the $38,000 quoted earlier for the type rating from my salary. Suddenly I'm working for $22,000/year. I can make more than that instructing in a C152. (And probably have a marginally better quality of life).

Now, if we start talking reasonable paychecks, say $100,000 minus the cost of training for one year, it might be a little more palletable.

 

[fly4free]

Pft

I agree with you. That's the cost of doing buisness. Some operators are taking advantage knowing the job market is currently tough for pilots. As a result they may feel that some pilots are willing to give up their savings or ask for bank loan. This just makes it harder for the rest of us.

Only my opinion....

I don't understand why everyone believes that it is the employers cost of doing buisness to type rate pilots for a position. Some of you guys need to understand that the owner of the company can and will do whatever he or she wants...pay for training, contracts, non industry standard salaries, selling aircraft out from under crews...need I go on.

If a company requires contracts for training costs...sign and fullfill the contract or PAY. And be happy to have your new type rating.

If a company requires PFT up front...PAY or go somewhere else and work. And be happy.

If a company pays for your training without a contract...do good work for them for a reasonable amount of time (year or two depending) and then if things don't work out...go somewhere else and be happy

If pilots are applying for jobs that require specific Type ratings or qualifications they don't already posess they shouldn't expect the company to pay for it without some sort of guarantee. Especially the way a lot of pilots job hop from job to job to job...why should all those companies pay for this kind of pilot's training.

And, yes, tanking a lower salary for the first year with a bonus at the end is a great alternative to up front costs. Try to just get a contract though with no reduction in first year salary. Better INMO.

Don't mean to ruffle feathers but PFT and contracts are not going anywhere, so lets all learn how to get along with them.

Fly

 

[kingairyahoo]

PFT and contracts are not going anywhere, so lets all learn how to get along with them.

Fly

contracts i have no problem with. PFT, ummmm no thanks...

 

[GV-Ace]

I don't understand why everyone believes that it is the employers cost of doing buisness to type rate pilots for a position. Some of you guys need to understand that the owner of the company can and will do whatever he or she wants...pay for training, contracts, non industry standard salaries, selling aircraft out from under crews...need I go on.

If a company requires contracts for training costs...sign and fullfill the contract or PAY. And be happy to have your new type rating.

If a company requires PFT up front...PAY or go somewhere else and work. And be happy.

If a company pays for your training without a contract...do good work for them for a reasonable amount of time (year or two depending) and then if things don't work out...go somewhere else and be happy

If pilots are applying for jobs that require specific Type ratings or qualifications they don't already posess they shouldn't expect the company to pay for it without some sort of guarantee. Especially the way a lot of pilots job hop from job to job to job...why should all those companies pay for this kind of pilot's training.

And, yes, tanking a lower salary for the first year with a bonus at the end is a great alternative to up front costs. Try to just get a contract though with no reduction in first year salary. Better INMO.

Don't mean to ruffle feathers but PFT and contracts are not going anywhere, so lets all learn how to get along with them.

Fly

I disagree. I'm so handsome and wonderful that employers should pay for my type ratings, moving expenses and a signing bonus, just to have the pleasure of my presence for anywhere from a day to a year. It’s worth their investment just to say they have had me set foot in their plane.



If an employer is not going to invest his hard earned money in MY future, who will?



Just ask anyone who knows me on this board - they all LOVE me.

 

[Flyin Tony]

Did I PFT

Did I PFT

My Dad paid for my pvt ifr com cfi. Now I fly him around for free. So did I PFT

Im just asking

sorry had nothing else to post