Gypsum dp (ege)

[starcheckdriver]

Question about the GYPSUM DP out of Eagle, Co (EGE):

The DP requires a climb gradient be met for runway 7 and 25, unless the weather is 4100-3 and you can climb in visual conditions. Each runway provides a procedure to follow and then says "or. . . Climb in visual conditions to cross the airport northeast bound at or above 10,500..."

However, there is a FDC NOTAM out that a visual climb on this DP overhead the airport is not authroized (NA).

The question is this....Based on the NOTAM, does that mean ANY visual climb when issued this DP (assuming you have the 4100-3) is NA, or just a visual climb overhead the airport? In other words, assuming the 4100-3 wx requirement is met, can you still climb out visually following the DP and not overflying the airport?

Or, because of this NOTAM, are you forced to meet the climb gradient even in wx conditions better than 4100-3?

 

[o2bflyn]

Question about the GYPSUM DP out of Eagle, Co (EGE):

The DP requires a climb gradient be met for runway 7 and 25, unless the weather is 4100-3 and you can climb in visual conditions. Each runway provides a procedure to follow and then says "or. . . Climb in visual conditions to cross the airport northeast bound at or above 10,500..."

However, there is a FDC NOTAM out that a visual climb on this DP overhead the airport is not authroized (NA).

The question is this....Based on the NOTAM, does that mean ANY visual climb when issued this DP (assuming you have the 4100-3) is NA, or just a visual climb overhead the airport? In other words, assuming the 4100-3 wx requirement is met, can you still climb out visually following the DP and not overflying the airport?

Or, because of this NOTAM, are you forced to meet the climb gradient even in wx conditions better than 4100-3?

I flew in and out of EGE for about 8 years. Basically they are trying to get away from people doing visual departures during the ski season. They need to keep a certain course (gypsum ) going out bound to coordinate with the arrivals and departures from ASE, EGE etc.... So, they do not someone in a climbing circle overhead the airport is basically what that is saying.

To answer your question, Yes. if the weather is over 4100-3 you can climg out visual on the Gypsum in visual conditions without meeting the climb gradient. If the weather is below the 4100-3 you cannot use the visual climb for crossing the airport boundary.

Also, do NOT plan on being given the departure off Rwy 7 during the ski busy periods unless the weather dictates they have to use it. With the exception of the airlines, you will wait for hours to get enough spacing with arrivals and departures.

 

[jet2work]

Wow! a straightforward excellent answer from someone who apparently is in the know. How refreshing. Thanks O2bflyn.

Not to muddy the waters, but if you are a part 91 operator, you could in theory do whatever you want. I recall sitting in Jackson, WY watching a Piltatus depart during a snow storm. Perfectly legal mind you, while I was waiting for the ceiling and vis to come up so I could leave in my FAR25 certified jet. FAR91 you run the risk of being slapped with the 91.13 "careless & reckless" charge, or as I like to call it (we don't like hot shot flyboys like you showing us the holes in our regulations). Pretty soon the FAA is going to close that loophole. Your solution now and when the loophole is closed is to get on board with a service like APG or Jeppesen (personally I prefer APG). You run the numbers, comply with the weight and any other restrictions, and then you take your chances that an engine does not fail at V1 while you are still rolling down the runway. If it does, you in theory have chosen a weight that will allow you to clear terrain (albeit not by very much) If your engine doesn't fail at V1 (about 1 billion times more likely) then you have something that you can show the NTSB when some FAA inspector tries to violate you. If you can get your local inspector to buy off on you using this data beforehand, he can probably intervene on your behalf before a violation is issued (will he, is another question).

Just so we are clear. Using APG does not make you any safer. Waiting for better weather (or having 3 engines) would always be a safer option IMHO. APG gives you performance data that keeps you legal, and God forbid you have an engine failure, will allow you to survive to explain to the FAA what you were doing.

 

[AA717driver]

Not to muddy the waters, but if you are a part 91 operator, you could in theory do whatever you want.

I'm guessing that, even if you depart VFR, they will give you a heading out of the area. There's no way they will turn you loose to do 360's over the airport (preventing IFR approaches in the process) regardless of weather.

If you were to do that, I would imagine that next summer, you would find yourself buried in an anthill somewhere surrounded by several Lear, Falcon and Challenger pilots drinking beer and recounting their holding/diversion experiences while you shut down the KEGE airspace for a half hour last Christmas...

TC

 

[o2bflyn]

Wow! a straightforward excellent answer from someone who apparently is in the know. How refreshing. Thanks O2bflyn.

Not to muddy the waters, but if you are a part 91 operator, you could in theory do whatever you want. I recall sitting in Jackson, WY watching a Piltatus depart during a snow storm. Perfectly legal mind you, while I was waiting for the ceiling and vis to come up so I could leave in my FAR25 certified jet. FAR91 you run the risk of being slapped with the 91.13 "careless & reckless" charge, or as I like to call it (we don't like hot shot flyboys like you showing us the holes in our regulations). Pretty soon the FAA is going to close that loophole. Your solution now and when the loophole is closed is to get on board with a service like APG or Jeppesen (personally I prefer APG). You run the numbers, comply with the weight and any other restrictions, and then you take your chances that an engine does not fail at V1 while you are still rolling down the runway. If it does, you in theory have chosen a weight that will allow you to clear terrain (albeit not by very much) If your engine doesn't fail at V1 (about 1 billion times more likely) then you have something that you can show the NTSB when some FAA inspector tries to violate you. If you can get your local inspector to buy off on you using this data beforehand, he can probably intervene on your behalf before a violation is issued (will he, is another question).

Just so we are clear. Using APG does not make you any safer. Waiting for better weather (or having 3 engines) would always be a safer option IMHO. APG gives you performance data that keeps you legal, and God forbid you have an engine failure, will allow you to survive to explain to the FAA what you were doing.

You are very right. Everyone that flies Part 25 a/c knows only need to make a 1.6 (gross) climb to be legal. That is 100'/nm of climb. Those of us who have been in the mountains know you will simply be 100' further up the mountain when you hit it. If you chuck an engine coming off 25 at Eagle. DO NOT FOLLOW I70 WEST BOUND ON A VFR CLIMG. About 20 miles down the road it gets very twisty turney. You will NOT be able to out climb or out turn the terrain. Flying the 215 degree turn on the departure will point you towards a valley that is more suited. Too many people say they would follow I70 to Rifle.....you wont make it.

Another note about VFR departures at EGE:

VFR arrivals....don't even try it. Unless you have made previous arrangements with tower you will be told to remain clear. That's an old trick we used for years when they started the STMP program.

VFR departures.....these are given on first come first serve. Its a tricky proposition. If you request VFR departure, they will take your IFR out of the system and you will be put in line. Because there is one runway running in one direction you will only be launched if the opportunity presents itself. Still could be looking at 45+ delays. They will tell you that you will not be able to pick up IFR airborne. Be prepared for a VFR climbout, but I have never had too much trouble picking up an IFR from Denver center. If you think there will be simply head west-bound towards Salt Lake airspace. They will usually give you an IFR clearance and turn you back East.

Good luck to everyone. Eagle is a bit of a pain in the butt during ski season, but with a little patience on your ( and you pax) side it is doable.

 

[o2bflyn]

I'm guessing that, even if you depart VFR, they will give you a heading out of the area. There's no way they will turn you loose to do 360's over the airport (preventing IFR approaches in the process) regardless of weather.

If you were to do that, I would imagine that next summer, you would find yourself buried in an anthill somewhere surrounded by several Lear, Falcon and Challenger pilots drinking beer and recounting their holding/diversion experiences while you shut down the KEGE airspace for a half hour last Christmas...

TC

half hour? That would be a short delay for EGE during ski season.

That place needs an approach radar like no ones business. One IFR arrival or departure in EGE airspace at a time, just doesn't cut it.

 

[LJ45]

1.6 net (2.4 gross)

 

[o2bflyn]

1.6 net (2.4 gross)

Sorry, your right......for some reason I always get those words confused.

 

[jet2work]

I'm guessing that, even if you depart VFR, they will give you a heading out of the area. There's no way they will turn you loose to do 360's over the airport (preventing IFR approaches in the process) regardless of weather.

If you were to do that, I would imagine that next summer, you would find yourself buried in an anthill somewhere surrounded by several Lear, Falcon and Challenger pilots drinking beer and recounting their holding/diversion experiences while you shut down the KEGE airspace for a half hour last Christmas...

TC

Sorry, I was referencing the fact that FAR91 you do not have to comply with the ceiling and vis requirements. That loophole will allegedly be closed with AC 120-91.

Earlier this year I was sitting in line at KTEB (story of my life) When a guy in a GIV who was a few in sequence behind me, asked if he could depart VFR. The controller said "sure, are you planning to remain VFR all the way to KSLC, because no one down the line has time to give you an IFR clearance." After a pause the guy says "yes." The controller then tells him that he can expect about a 45 minute delay for the VFR departure and asks if he wants her to cancel his IFR clearance, at which point the guy finally gets a clue.

I find it hard to believe that the guy was so completely unaware that he was screwing all the guys in front of him waiting to depart KTEB, but I have been wrong before.

 

[doublepsych]

Earlier this year I was sitting in line at KTEB (story of my life) When a guy in a GIV who was a few in sequence behind me, asked if he could depart VFR. The controller said "sure, are you planning to remain VFR all the way to KSLC, because no one down the line has time to give you an IFR clearance." After a pause the guy says "yes." The controller then tells him that he can expect about a 45 minute delay for the VFR departure and asks if he wants her to cancel his IFR clearance, at which point the guy finally gets a clue.

I find it hard to believe that the guy was so completely unaware that he was screwing all the guys in front of him waiting to depart KTEB, but I have been wrong before.

This sounds like my dumb-a** chief pilot...I know of at least a half dozen episodes of this nature, involving him, generally without the "getting a clue" resolution...