Gulfstream Academy dangerous to the profession?

[The_Russian]

However with a level head, I can honestly say that yes I do still question the competance of the training program at Gulfstream and the rest of what I posts are to that avail. I'm glad I didn't go that route and feel sorry for those that really had idea what they were doing when went to Gulfstream. Again, I reitterate that something doesn't quite seem right when a small operation is attributed to two terrible accidents.

Do you have any first hand experience with Gulfstream Academy?

Are you trying to say that Gulfstream caused the FLG 3701 and CMR 5191 accidents?

 

[Drill Sgt. Dad]

Not that I went there, but what the hell you talking about Willis? Gulfstream was built to help people get a start fast in the Airline Career! For what, I have no freakin idea! But Gulfstream doesn't have anything to do with these accidents.... Period!!! Gay Topic and Post...

I still don't agree with WSURF's choice of rooting for the Tarheels. But I must agree with Surf on this one. Gulfstream or not is irrelevant!

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Defend it from what? The operation has nothing to do with pilot quality.



You are not being constructive, whatsoever. What does our training have to do with a pilots personal level of situational awareness? We train to the same FAA dictated standards of all other airlines operating within the United States.



Have you done an incompetence check on your airline? Maybe you should! You are good at this!

Your posting with emotion so I'm just about done trying to get through to you. What's pointless is trying to debate someone who is who is severely biased as in your case. It's somewhat to mostly understandable. The main point now is that if perspective pilots reconsider the Gulfstream route, it will by simple economics be forced to overhaul it's methods to find willing candidates for its' operation.

 

[B190Captain]

Your posting with emotion so I'm just about done trying to get through to you. What's pointless is trying to debate someone who is who is severely biased as in your case. It's somewhat to mostly understandable. The main point now is that if perspective pilots reconsider the Gulfstream route, it will by simple economics be forced to overhaul it's methods to find willing candidates for its' operation.

Scuba,

Give it a rest and STFU. You obviously do not have any clue of what you are talking about.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Are you trying to say that Gulfstream caused the FLG 3701 and CMR 5191 accidents?

Was Gulfstream the primary factor in these accidents? No. Was it a contributing factor? I'm thinking yes and already have provided four arguments...

1) 3/4 of the last commercial aviation fatalities involved Gulfstream background pilots
2) Subjectively speaking, the Pinnacle accident was the most incompetant and reckless accident of all time in commercial aviation
3) Pinnacle subsequently decided to curtail it's hiring of Gulfstream pilots
4) it's training methods are quite unorthodox in having pilots pay to fly it's airline operations at very low times of experience with no CFI training involved

 

[Nindiri]

Dumb counter-argument . If you look back at the Pinnacle accident, there was extreme reckless behaivor involved so that is one critical aspect of my argument. Second of all, we're talking about recent history, not the Pan Am era. Gulfstream is not that big of an operation (500 current pilots); so yea, 3 out of 4 is not good odds.

lmao:laugh: I wasn't making a counter-argument, you idiot, I was making fun of you. The fact that you took it seriously just makes it funnier. There is no need to make a "counter-argument" because the problems in your reasoning are self-evident.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Scuba,

Give it a rest and STFU. You obviously do not have any clue of what you are talking about.

Again, your emotions and level of bias are to extreme to provide any constructive debate into this problem. Anyone who...
a) was a former or is a current Gulfstream pilot
b) has family or a good friend who was a former or is a current Gulfstream pilot

is going to call me dumb just because of your severe bias and critical concern of any criticism. I'm just about done with this for now. Points been made and now it's just about time to go boating.

 

[The_Russian]

Your posting with emotion so I'm just about done trying to get through to you. What's pointless is trying to debate someone who is who is severely biased as in your case. It's somewhat to mostly understandable. The main point now is that if perspective pilots reconsider the Gulfstream route, it will by simple economics be forced to overhaul it's methods to find willing candidates for its' operation.

I am not "posting with emotion". You are lucky that I am being calm with you, others on this board have felt my sting before. You are trying to back off now because EVERYONE is telling you that you are wrong.

You messed up man. Its ok!

Now you will learn not to say things that are incorrect. You will now also be required to back up your statements.

Trust me, I am not biased. I did the CFI thing and I flew corporate. I do not believe that everyone should flight instruct either. Some people should not be permitted to teach flying whatsoever! I do however, think that everyone should have a well rounded aviation experience. If you spend a career just flying 121, you have a one-sided knowledge of aviation. It would be like a salesman that only knows how to sell the trucks on the lot, but not the cars.

 

[The_Russian]

Was Gulfstream the primary factor in these accidents? No. Was it a contributing factor? I'm thinking yes and already have provided four arguments...

1) 3/4 of the last commercial aviation fatalities involved Gulfstream background pilots
2) Subjectively speaking, the Pinnacle accident was the most incompetant and reckless accident of all time in commercial aviation
3) Pinnacle subsequently decided to curtail it's hiring of Gulfstream pilots
4) it's training methods are quite unorthodox in having pilots pay to fly it's airline operations at very low times of experience with no CFI training involved

1) There are a lot of us out there now. 90% of them are flying regional jets for regional airlines in the United States.

2) Not true. If you get that conclusion from the last four accidents, then yes. It may be true. Please present facts as to why it was "the most incompetant and reckless accident of all time in commercial aviation". I am sure that there are other accidents that preceeded this one which were far worse.

3) So what?

4) What does flight time have to do with it? Why is "acting as a CFI" a career requirement to safety?

Please answer my questions from my previous posts also.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

however, think that everyone should have a well rounded aviation experience. If you spend a career just flying 121, you have a one-sided knowledge of aviation. It would be like a salesman that only knows how to sell the trucks on the lot, but not the cars.

See, we can actually agree on something. Which really goes at the heart of my argument. Pilots who go to Gulfstream with virtually no other experience, pay to play, and then end up in the news later another carrier. That's harsh, but the track record speaks for itself. My understanding is that all three former Gulfstream pilots had no other aviation experience so I would differentiate your background from the others.

 

[Espalda Mojado]

Word on the street is that GIA is going to get those COEX planes if they can't chop 'em into parts first.

 

[B190Captain]

Was Gulfstream the primary factor in these accidents? No. Was it a contributing factor? I'm thinking yes and already have provided four arguments...

1) 3/4 of the last commercial aviation fatalities involved Gulfstream background pilots
2) Subjectively speaking, the Pinnacle accident was the most incompetant and reckless accident of all time in commercial aviation
3) Pinnacle subsequently decided to curtail it's hiring of Gulfstream pilots
4) it's training methods are quite unorthodox in having pilots pay to fly it's airline operations at very low times of experience with no CFI training involved

Some folks that I trained at GIA did have CFI experience and you won't see my sign off on their training record, get it? . The fact that they came to GIA has no bearing on what happened in any accident. The more you post the more of a clueless little sh*t you make yourself to be.

Just because you were a CFI does not make you any better than someone who does not hold a CFI in the airline world, PERIOD.

 

[lancair360]

I've been a pilot for 19 years, an experimental A/C owner/builder for 6 years and did the Gulfstream 250 hr. deal back in 2002 to get on with Pinnacle.

God forbid, if I F.U. bad tomorrow please do not blame Gulfstream.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

1) There are a lot of us out there now. 90% of them are flying regional jets for regional airlines in the United States.

2) Not true. If you get that conclusion from the last four accidents, then yes. It may be true. Please present facts as to why it was "the most incompetant and reckless accident of all time in commercial aviation". I am sure that there are other accidents that preceeded this one which were far worse.

3) So what?

4) What does flight time have to do with it? Why is "acting as a CFI" a career requirement to safety?

Please answer my questions from my previous posts also.

As to number 3, So what? Wow!?!? Number 4, when you are concerned about the safety of others (aka: CFI), your probably going to be more safe. Number 1, again, small operation at 250 pilots. That's the size of many medium to small aviation university programs. And finally, Number 2; the most incompetant and reckless accident. Well, I've heard more then one pilot describe that accident as inexcusable. I've taken CRM for 6 years in addition to a 4 credit CRM class in college, and don't recall an accident with anything of the sorts involving the words "Dude" and we're just looking to have "some fun". If you have another accident in mind that trumps it, please enlighten us. Sorry for the short hand writing; almost out of time.

 

[WSurf]

Your posting with emotion so I'm just about done trying to get through to you. What's pointless is trying to debate someone who is who is severely biased as in your case. It's somewhat to mostly understandable. The main point now is that if perspective pilots reconsider the Gulfstream route, it will by simple economics be forced to overhaul it's methods to find willing candidates for its' operation.

I think Regional Airline Pay has taken care of that!

 

[WSurf]

Has Gulfstream Airlines had a crash?

 

[B190Captain]

Again, your emotions and level of bias are to extreme to provide any constructive debate into this problem. Anyone who...
a) was a former or is a current Gulfstream pilot
b) has family or a good friend who was a former or is a current Gulfstream pilot

is going to call me dumb just because of your severe bias and critical concern of any criticism. I'm just about done with this for now. Points been made and now it's just about time to go boating.

Don't fall in you pr*ck!

Since your vast experience and aviation knowledge is above anyone who does not have a degree and a CFI, X-Jet obviously is your first airline job. What did you do before that so we can spit on your grave and blame the college or flight school when you make a mistake you tool. Maybe we will blame your mother when she dropped you on your head and have the victims file a lawsuit against her.

Get it genius? What they did before is irrelevant!! Hell blame the FAA for issuing their certificates.

Nuff said!

 

[B190Captain]

Has Gulfstream Airlines had a crash?

NOPE 0 fatalities!

 

[WSurf]

NOPE 0 fatalities!

Thank You! Case Closed.... Done, finished OVER!!!!

Go Heels!!!!!

 

[lancair360]

The flight school had a mid-air along the coast a few years back, but to my knowledge the airline has never had a fatality.

Say what you will about the training, but I went there with 1600TT/400ME and thought it was pretty comprehensive. Two out of 12 in my class washed out during training.

The ground school instructors were senior line pilots and much more experienced than my Pinnacle ground instructor was.

 

[BoilerUP]

Again, your emotions and level of bias are to extreme to provide any constructive debate into this problem. Anyone who...
a) was a former or is a current Gulfstream pilot
b) has family or a good friend who was a former or is a current Gulfstream pilot

is going to call me dumb just because of your severe bias and critical concern of any criticism. I'm just about done with this for now. Points been made and now it's just about time to go boating.

I never flew at Gulfstream, nor do I know anybody well that has, but I call you dumb because your lack of intelligent correlation skills. Your entire argument is a friggin' strawman. The only point you have made is that you are really good at drawing conclusions from incomplete & inconclusive data.

I dunno if you ignored my post or simply missed it, so I'll post its contents again for you:

That's like saying the vertical stab snaps off in every domestic Airbus A300 accident, or the rudder hard-overs in every domestic B737 accident.

The FLG3701 horse has been beaten to death and we all learned from the gross negligence (that's what that accident was) on a ferry flight that cost two people their lives. Comair 5191 (IMO) was nothing like that.

I'm sure there are bad pilots with GIA backgrounds out there (just like there are bad pilots with 135/CFI/91/121 backgrounds), but the GIA/unsafe pilots causing accidents correlation suggested in this thread does not exist.

 

[flyboyike]

1) 3/4 of the last commercial aviation fatalities involved Gulfstream background pilots.

Let me show you the glaring problem with that argument. Did you know that both of the Space Shuttles that crashed carried two women and one Jew? In fact, in case of the Challenger, one of the women was Jewish. There has never been a Space Shuttle crash when the crew was all-male and included no Jews. Does that mean they should never put women and/or Jews on the Space Shuttle? I mean, the odds look pretty awful, don't they?

This is what in logic studies is referred to as "fallacy of relationship". Just the fact that a factor was concurrent to an event does not make that factor either causal or contributory. It can be just concurrent.

Let me show you another example of what's wrong with that thought pattern. You're driving down the street. The limit is 30 and you're doing 32. A kid pops out of a driveway, you have all of 2.5 feet to stop. Of course, you can't stop and the kid gets road-pizza'd. Outfits like IIHS will use this to argue that speed kills, because you were, after all, speeding. Never mind that you could have never stopped from 30 any quicker than from 32.

My point is this: maybe all these guys were, in fact, incometent. I don't know any of them, I can't state with any certainty one way or the other. However, I don't see how Gulfstream (or any other carrier) can create an idiot. If you were one before Gulfstream, odds are you will be one after. Similarly, if you were good before Gulfstream, you'll be good after. Meaning, Gulfstream is a concurrent factor, nothing else, unless you can show me some conclusive evidence to the contrary.

For the record, I didn't go through Gulfstream, in fact, I've never even been to Florida.

 

[The_Russian]

Let me show you the glaring problem with that argument. Did you know that both of the Space Shuttles that crashed carried two women and one Jew? In fact, in case of the Challenger, one of the women was Jewish. There has never been a Space Shuttle crash when the crew was all-male and included no Jews. Does that mean they should never put women and/or Jews on the Space Shuttle? I mean, the odds look pretty awful, don't they?

This is what in logic studies is referred to as "fallacy of relationship". Just the fact that a factor was concurrent to an event does not make that factor either causal or contributory. It can be just concurrent.

Let me show you another example of what's wrong with that thought pattern. You're driving down the street. The limit is 30 and you're doing 32. A kid pops out of a driveway, you have all of 2.5 feet to stop. Of course, you can't stop and the kid gets road-pizza'd. Outfits like IIHS will use this to argue that speed kills, because you were, after all, speeding. Never mind that you could have never stopped from 30 any quicker than from 32.

My point is this: maybe all these guys were, in fact, incometent. I don't know any of them, I can't state with any certainty one way or the other. However, I don't see how Gulfstream (or any other carrier) can create an idiot. If you were one before Gulfstream, odds are you will be one after. Similarly, if you were good before Gulfstream, you'll be good after. Meaning, Gulfstream is a concurrent factor, nothing else, unless you can show me some conclusive evidence to the contrary.

For the record, I didn't go through Gulfstream, in fact, I've never even been to Florida.

Great post!

 

[The_Russian]

Fly2scuba,

Please answer all of my questions. You have not answered one of them, so I will repost them for you here:

1) So what? (related to PCL hiring) (all you said in response was "Wow")

2) What does flight time have to do with it?

3) Why is "acting as a CFI" a career requirement to safety?

4) Do you have any first hand experience with Gulfstream Academy?

5) Are you trying to say that Gulfstream caused the FLG 3701 and CMR 5191 accidents?

6) What does our training have to do with a pilots personal level of situational awareness?

7) Have you done an incompetence check on your airline? (had to put that in there)

Please answer my questions if you would like to conduct a real debate with me.

 

[The_Russian]

Good work Gentlemen. (oh yeah, ladies too!)

 

[fatazz]

I think the person who started this had too much time on their hands and wanted to stir something up. If not then I would agree he/she or it (not that there is anything wrong with that) is a total D&umbass.

 

[BeCareful!]

I know some great pilots and people from GIA. I've also flown with some tools and some weak pilots from there.

Still, anyone who doesn't see a problem with the 3/4 ratio.....is.....probably....a.....former GIA student pilot!

I'm sure even my two friends who went there would agree.

 

[The_Russian]

I see it, but I think it is coincidence. For the past 12 years GIA has been putting roughly 20 FO's out into the workforce every month.

12*12*20=2880

A possible 2880 pilots out in the industry! That is an astounding number. I am sure it is not the actually amount. But, you get my point. There are a lot of us out there.....

 

[jetjock6]

I flew with JP a few times and I believe he was hired at Gulfstream as a street captain...not PFT.

 

[B190Captain]

I flew with JP a few times and I believe he was hired at Gulfstream as a street captain...not PFT.

No, he was not a street captain.