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Guard or Reserve

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asayankee

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Posts
446
I'm looking for some clear cut reasons to back up any opinions. Whats the better option for a 121 guy looking for a part time job that will provide some job security, a purpose, and a new group of friends to have a few beers with after work.

A pilot slot in the Air National Guard or the Reserve?

Thanks for your Posts
 
I think pizza delivery guy is the what you're looking for.

we picked up some pizza a little while ago and the off duty driver was smashed and throwing peanuts at the TV.
 
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Go with the one you can get a job with: I'd be surprised if you can get enough job offers to be concerned over which one you should take.
But if you do: location, location, location.
 
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Like Huggy said, whichever one you can get a slot at. Competition for slots widely varies based on location and airframe.
Then it just comes down to your priorities. What is most important, just some place to hang out and fall back on if the airline job goes south or something more demanding. Differences are more between the individual units themselves than between Guard vs. Reserve.
Just have to visit some units and find out.
 
I think Huggyu2 gave you pretty much as real an answer as you're going to find. It is VERY competitive to get a pilot slot in the Guard/Reserves. You would be in a decent position if you were to actually have multiple pilot slot offers. Meaning, in my humble opinion, chances are ANY of these pilot slots are worth more than your current 121 employment. As a matter of fact, even as a part-timer, you are probably able to pull more money in the Guard/Reserves as a bum/trougher than most 121 employer's junior year payscales, not even a question if we are talking regionals. So, I think that's where you got the sarcastic responses; your current 121 employment would probably be the "complementing" job to the Guard/Reserve job, not the other way around; at least until you get to your "dream" major job, and then it would still see you through the first year payscale. Also, I'm not saying you intended to, but I think it may have been misunderstood from your post that you may think having 121 time under your belt make attaining a Guard/Reserve slot a done deal. It doesn't really.

Now, to answer your question, there is no visible difference in a pilot job in the ANG vs. the AF Reserves. The ANG has a state mission in addition to the federal mission, but from the perspective of a pilot, this is a non-issue. The pay system is the same, the job nature is exactly the same, the drill system is the same. The workload, availability of orders, activation rate is all dependent on tons of things, none of which is whether they are Reserve vs. Guard...for the most part. They are in essence the same.

The application process is a little different in the Reserves, but not much. In the Guard, you apply directly to the unit you wish to work for. IF you get an interview, you go through that and if lucky, or your daddy is the WG/CC (sorry, had to throw that in), you're in. In the Reserves the process is the same as far as applying to individual units and interviewing, but at the end of that step, your application package gets submitted to a National pilot board that is held twice a year, where packages are either approved or dissaproved. For guys who get hired with the unit, their packages are "sponsored" by said unit and sent to the board. 99.9% of sponsored packages are approved. It is in essence a rubber stamp. The other option the Reserves has available is the unsponsored package, in which you send your package directly to the board as an individual civilian under the sponsoring of a regional Reserve officer accessions recruiter. Under this method, you go through all the paperwork hoops as a civilian with the "help" of the recruiter and he/she submits the package to Robins AFB (AFRC HQ). If your package is approved as an unsponsored applicant, you then have to go look for an employer..i.e. a unit. Some people consider the process to be a waste of time because you would still have to pimp up the individual units and get an interview with them, just like the dudes who interviewed and went to the board sponsored. I can tell you it's a lot different going to a unit with all your paperwork approved, it's just like being a free agent. Plus if you were to get hired, you would get put on orders on the spot, as you were already approved. It is the 1% route, but I can vouch for it, as I gained access to the Reserves as an unsponsored guy.

That's the skinny on Guard/Reserves. Good luck on your quest. Oh yeah, and for the most part, Guard Reserve jobs are pretty much ideally set up to work with the airline work schedule, much more so than the 9-5er.
 
I'm looking for some clear cut reasons to back up any opinions. Whats the better option for a 121 guy looking for a part time job that will provide some job security, a purpose, and a new group of friends to have a few beers with after work.

A pilot slot in the Air National Guard or the Reserve?

Thanks for your Posts

Yankee - you're also limited on which units are willing to hire a brand new guy to the military and send him to pilot training in the first place...i.e. a lot of units don't hire brand new pups to begin with, only ones with active duty experience. Not only do you have that working against you, but right now it is extremely competitive just to get in a unit - especially with all the BRAC BS that has moved/downsized units throughout the country.

121 experience will probably not help you out much either. UPT in the military is designed to teach a brand new guy to fly the "military" way, and whether you've got 10,000 hours in a 747 or 10 hours in a 172, you're going to learn a whole new way of flying. In actuality, guys with a lot of civilian time tended to struggle in some ways trying to break their old habit patterns vrs. a brand new guy with no habit patterns set to begin with. In the end, skill and attitude will prevail in making it through the program, the 10,000 prior hours won't mean a thing.

Now, after all the pessimism - I do wish you luck. It's awesome to get to serve your country and fly for the military at the same time (in my opinion the best job in the world).
 
job security, a purpose, and a new group of friends to have a few beers with after work.

:rolleyes: 2 out of 3 of these are not generally the reasons I've seen people join the military in my experience.

You could get all these things as a mailman (just don't pi$$ anyone off after a few beers... ya know - the whole "postal" thing.....:D )
 
everything that's been mentioned so far is pretty much true. I know that my unit is actually over staffed with pilots by about 20%. So we definately don't need to be hiring more people. It just makes it hard for the rest of us to make any money bumming.
 
everything that's been mentioned so far is pretty much true. I know that my unit is actually over staffed with pilots by about 20%. So we definately don't need to be hiring more people. It just makes it hard for the rest of us to make any money bumming.

CFIIer - where and what do you fly in the reserves?
 
Last time I answered a question like this, I got jumped on!

My answer now would be: reach deep down inside and make damn sure you exactly what you are getting yourself into. In my opinion, if you don't feel that deep rooted desire to be in the military, it will not work out. If your looking for the things you mentioned (minus the purpose part), you can find that elsewhere..be a cop!

But to directly answer your question...both serve a great purpose and either would be a privilege to serve in....trust me.
 
My unit seems to have a fetish for wayward airline pilots, commuter (welfare cases), and the such. I do know that there are several heavy reserve units that are still hiring. .As for your reasons. . .they sound great just add one more: To enjoy the beauty of the Mk84's reduction of lowlife commies to a fine pink mist. . . .
 
I was in both the guard and now at upt sponsored by a reserve unit. Both are good. In the end it boils down to what equip you want to fly, your connections, and finding a unit that can provide a great amount of flying opportunity. For me that was key as I'm young and off the street with no airline job to back me up etc.
 
Regarding the prior flying time, I would disagree 100% on whether it helps oor not. I find those who had little to no time prior to UPT tend to be the ones saying that it does not matter. I had about 4000 when I went through and it made it quite easy. Mabye it was just me.
 
Maybe it was just you...I had about 200 hours of general aviation time (multi instrument), and found the T-37 portion to go relatively smooth. One thing that I do agree with about having some civilian time was your instrument skills - that did help excel in the instrument phase of the Tweet. However T-38's were the great equalizer...and most folks were pretty even when we started flying them. T-38's were a blast, but certainly wasn't "easy." And I guess I did OK as I happened to get my first choice - which was the F-15C.

Most of the folks had little to no prior time (maybe 30 hours or so in a 172). All of them turned out to do great and I think every one of them got their first choice of fighter. Our top grad had absolutely no time whatsoever starting UPT.

Of the 2 guys that washed out - one was a comm officer who couldn't stop puking and the other dude was an RJ pilot that had about 2000 hours of civilian jet time but couldn't fly a mil jet to save his life.
 
I find those who had little to no time prior to UPT tend to be the ones saying that it does not matter.

Absolutely. Just like size, prior time matters; but then again so does attitude. All that talk about bad habits is crap provided the high timer has a willingness to change/learn. Coming out of Corpus, the top 5 NSS's (Navy Standard Score) in the squadron, for the year, went to prior flight timers.
 
2 Points

1. To the dude who started this post... check out baseops.net for units who are hiring... most of the advertisements also state whether or not they are looking to send people to UPT, or if they are only seeking current and qualified applicants. Also, most units prefer someone who either currently lives in, or grew up in/has ties to the state in which that unit is in.

2. As a former UPT instructor, I'd say that more students without prior time don't make it, compared to those with prior time... but I was very suprised with how much prior experience pilots struggled, especially with basic instrument flying.... and I'd also say that the guys with lots of prior experience never, ever were even close to the best in the class when all was said and done.
 
2 Points

2. As a former UPT instructor, I'd say that more students without prior time don't make it, compared to those with prior time... but I was very suprised with how much prior experience pilots struggled, especially with basic instrument flying.... and I'd also say that the guys with lots of prior experience never, ever were even close to the best in the class when all was said and done.

Ok......That's a crass generalization. If they really know their stuff, and have cared enough to remain current in their civi flying (I know plenty of dudes at UPT who got up until their commercial but haven't been on a plane in 2-3 years and can't remember what FAR/AIM stands for), there is no reason a prior civi should have problems flying IFR during UPT. As a matter of fact, it is hard to even bring up the point, when said prior guy has more IMC real time than the IP in front..particularly single pilot IMC.. This was usually the case flying against FAIPs. Forget the students, the instrument instruction was lacking in my opinion, they should call it undergraduate pilot testing for all I've seen so far.

By the end of Phase II, everybody pretty much caught up with the canned routine of UPT. The real SA-builder for the non-prior time folks comes on x-countries and off-station flying, where, you guessed it, the civies feel at home. Again, it is important to recognize that for the sake of the argument, UPT is AETC, which is not operational military flying. Anybody can excel at turning rejoins independent of prior time (particularly since very few civies come to UPT with formation time) but the addtional SA built over years of flying in the NAS makes a significant difference in whether somebody gets to work a little less or a little more in keeping up with the 'firehose'...particularly during Phase II where it really counts.

In my short tenure in AETC, most folks with prior time have pretty much coasted through the program, most of those also happen to be Guard/Reserve (no surprise there). The problem arises when somebody's attitude does not allow them to flex around the massive qweepload that the UPT environment creates. To suggest civilian pilots as a whole have problems adjusting to the environment is another crass generalization.

The thing is that people miss the point of prior experience and the difference of what said time means for an active duty stud vs. a Guard/Reservist. We have already established that lack of flight time is NOT an impediment at all for anybody to excel at UPT and get his first choice and be número 1. What needs to be established is that the prior-time guy has for the most part the discretion to COAST through the program. Combine that with already knowing what you're going to fly and there's your answer.

It's not your ability to go insane trying to go out with gusto, it's being able to cruise the course that is a more palpable gage of the impact previous flight time has on success in the program. And in my experience that has been the unavoidable truth. If active dudes frown on that attitude, then go sail a boat, but that's the real impact of previous flight time. Why do you think they don't want pre-UPT AF dudes sandbagging rides, and getting stick time prior to the course? The leadership itself admits a monkey can be taught to fly given enough repetition! So come on....
 
Nope I agree 100%... most dudes with prior time do try to coast... find out its not the same, then have to work their butts off to catch up... and this has nothing to do with active duty or guard/reserve...
And you are right, the prior experience guys... especially the regional guys who came through were great getting vectors to final for an ILS, but ask them to go direct to a radial/DME fix, then shoot the VOR full procedure with a circle, and they just look at you like your crazy, and tell you that they normally let their FMS find the point.
I'm not saying that this is all the prior experienced studs... I'm just saying that this is the fact of what happend with the ones I flew with.
 
Ok......That's a crass generalization. If they really know their stuff, and have cared enough to remain current in their civi flying (I know plenty of dudes at UPT who got up until their commercial but haven't been on a plane in 2-3 years and can't remember what FAR/AIM stands for), there is no reason a prior civi should have problems flying IFR during UPT. As a matter of fact, it is hard to even bring up the point, when said prior guy has more IMC real time than the IP in front..particularly single pilot IMC.. This was usually the case flying against FAIPs. Forget the students, the instrument instruction was lacking in my opinion, they should call it undergraduate pilot testing for all I've seen so far.

By the end of Phase II, everybody pretty much caught up with the canned routine of UPT. The real SA-builder for the non-prior time folks comes on x-countries and off-station flying, where, you guessed it, the civies feel at home. Again, it is important to recognize that for the sake of the argument, UPT is AETC, which is not operational military flying. Anybody can excel at turning rejoins independent of prior time (particularly since very few civies come to UPT with formation time) but the addtional SA built over years of flying in the NAS makes a significant difference in whether somebody gets to work a little less or a little more in keeping up with the 'firehose'...particularly during Phase II where it really counts.

In my short tenure in AETC, most folks with prior time have pretty much coasted through the program, most of those also happen to be Guard/Reserve (no surprise there). The problem arises when somebody's attitude does not allow them to flex around the massive qweepload that the UPT environment creates. To suggest civilian pilots as a whole have problems adjusting to the environment is another crass generalization.

The thing is that people miss the point of prior experience and the difference of what said time means for an active duty stud vs. a Guard/Reservist. We have already established that lack of flight time is NOT an impediment at all for anybody to excel at UPT and get his first choice and be número 1. What needs to be established is that the prior-time guy has for the most part the discretion to COAST through the program. Combine that with already knowing what you're going to fly and there's your answer.

It's not your ability to go insane trying to go out with gusto, it's being able to cruise the course that is a more palpable gage of the impact previous flight time has on success in the program. And in my experience that has been the unavoidable truth. If active dudes frown on that attitude, then go sail a boat, but that's the real impact of previous flight time. Why do you think they don't want pre-UPT AF dudes sandbagging rides, and getting stick time prior to the course? The leadership itself admits a monkey can be taught to fly given enough repetition! So come on....

Damn you put some effort in typing these posts! Good on ya
 
Hindsight, Well said!! One of the best written replies to a thread in a long while.

My .02 as a watcher of several clans of chimpanzees going through the Jane Goodall UPT flight room for several years, I can make the following broad generalizations.

It is all attitude, I have seen lazy pilots with civilian bad habits who thought they knew it all struggle. I have seen good pilots who knew their instrument procedures, airspace, and FAR/AIM cold who could concentrate on the main differences and new military procedures (mostly RSU pattern ops and formation) really excell at UPT. I have also seen military pilots come back from one operational tour who for various reasons (lack of self discipline, or the struggle to balance family with ops tempo and PME/Masters degree requirements against staying in the books) who have turned into SCNS/FMS/INS babies who could barely do the basics let alone explain them to students and could not make it through PIT.

A good pilot is a good pilot whether they were trained civilian or military. I learned that at my regional job where I flew with a lot of great captains who in my opinion had a great deal of SA beyond just getting vectors to final and asking ATL approach everybody's favorite call when it got busy--"How long is the final?" What matters is someone who is willing to learn and always wants to improve themselves and their flying ability.

I have had many discussions with ANG/Reserve CFI/II/MEIs at UPT and they all talked about how much they learned about teaching and looking outside from the way most of us do intial manuever demos and the value of hard core chairflying. Most said they would now teach some of that stuff to their civilian students, especially UPT candidates, if they ended up teaching again when they got finished with training and were back at their units flying.

There is a new paradigm at UPT. For those of you who did T-37s/T-38s or T-37s/T-1s, JSUPT has changed greatly since the advent of the T-6. T-6 academics are mostly done on CBTs, not the intense classroom hands on instruction that was given mostly by IPs or contract instructors in the old days. I will let the current UPT students on here say what they think about the quality of their academics.

Also we are teaching way more in the same 90 training days that Phase II allows than was taught in T-37s. Due to the single engine and possibility of engine failure necessitating an off station landing, today's student is learning SFO/ELP patterns (which are vastly different than a single engine overhead in a T-37) to uncontrolled airports and how to make CTAF calls on VHF while managing SOF/RAPCON on UHF. We are now doing some approaches at uncontrolled fields to alleviate pattern congestion at the home field, so they have to learn radio management to deal again with approach/center and make the switch off to CTAF and make a good advisory call. We are doing GPS approaches and using the GPS for area orientation backup and they need to know all the RNAV RNP constraints as well as setting up the machine so that it doesn't yield the classic garbage in/garbage out SA sucking situation.

The T-6 syllabus has more hand tying constraints regarding when events need to be accomplished. The T-6 syllabus also has 20 more simulator events than did the T-37 syllabus. When you take into account the 45 minute contracted prebrief, the 1.3 simulator session time, and the 45 minute contracted debrief time, we have just piled an additional 55 hours or work onto their plate that takes away from study time. If you assume each student spends an hour to get ready for each of those sims, we just added another 20 hours of prep time. All totaling up to 75 hours more time spent that was not spent before, almost two weeks of work on a standard 40 hour work week.

Gone are the days from just a few years ago when someone could come to UPT having never flown an airplane (it happened in the post T-3/pre IFT standup time in 98), and get through T-37s. A friend of mine was in that situation, not only got through Tweets, but got 38s, got a fighter follow on when they still gave follow on assigments to FAIPs, and is now flying F-15s. He was good and had a lot of natural talent, but I don't know that he would have done as well in T-6s as he did in Tweets due to the aforementioned differences in the program and the 1100hp of torque, spiraling slipstream and p-factor, and tandem seating that comes with the T-6.

Taking all that into consideration, I believe someone with prior time and a good attitude/open mind and a desire to be a better pilot has a greater chance of success at UPT than someone with just 25 hours of IFT under their belt. The active duty people who get the UH-1 given to them instead of choosing it by virtue of the MASS ranking are usually the ones with limited to no prior flying experience or had some time and thought they knew it all and got behind from being lazy early on in Phase II and just got so far behind that they struggled just to stay above water the whole way through. (By that I meant no slam on the rotor community, just that some people want fixed wing and don't want to go to Ft Rucker find themselves in an unwanted Phase III assignment.) Once you leave the RSU pattern and until you get to formation, flying to and from the MOA, shooting approaches, and what you do in the enroute structure on cross country is flying in the NAS and should be 95% the same whether you are in a flight suit or wearing a tie and collar. Someone with prior time and a ANG/Reserve assigment can coast a little bit and get through Phase II, those going to fighter units who try this usually struggle a bit in 38s, because it is the great equalizer. I have seen several prior time people over the years work really hard and take the trophy at graduation and make their guard/reserve sponsor unit look really good, and I have seen some guys work harder at helping their classmates without being know it alls end up number 4 or 5 in the MASS ranking at the end of Phase II because they devoted more time to their classmates than they did to themselves.
 
Taking all that into consideration, I believe someone with prior time and a good attitude/open mind and a desire to be a better pilot has a greater chance of success at UPT than someone with just 25 hours of IFT under their belt.

Exactly. As Reddog mentioned, all of the nay-saying about dudes with eleventy-billion hours washing out typically comes from the 25hour IFTers who don't have the prior time to back it up.
 

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